Author Topic: Verbruggen carriage (Read 5861 times)

GGaskill · « **Reply #60 on:** May 17, 2011, 06:31:56 PM »

My guess as to why the trunnions were mounted below center for so long is that back in the really early days, someone made a tube with trunnions above center and it was so bad (muzzle would dip upon firing) that the backlash was to reverse the position so the recoil always held the tube on the quoin. This probably didn't really hurt much in the olden days of really long barrels and low shot weights and not too strong powder and twin trail carriages but with the evolution of the barrel to shorter and larger bore and the powder to more powerful and heavier shot, all giving more recoil, more and more stress was applied to the carriage but the powers that were were stuck with doing things the old way without understanding why it used to work but wasn't working so well now.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #61 on:** May 17, 2011, 08:59:51 PM »

I haven't looked up anything on this subject recently, but IIRC the motive for placing the trunnions below the centerline of the bore originated in an attempt to reduce the rearward recoil of the piece, whether used on field or naval guns, and from what I remember reading, the people involved with gunnery at that time considered it a success. I'm no physicist, but even I can understand that the lower trunnions would dissipate some of the rearward energy by pivoting the breech of the gun downward into the quoin/leveling screw and into the carriage. As has already been said the major drawback of this trunnion arrangement was the increased stress and wear inflicted on the carriage. Cannon makers/artillerymen in the late 18th, and early 19th century decided it was more advantageous to go back to placing the trunnions on the centerline of the bore, perhaps because the single block field carriage was superceding the double bracket carriage, and they weren't as able to take the punishment.

gunsonwheels · « **Reply #62 on:** May 18, 2011, 01:28:17 AM »

from GGaskill:

Quote

My guess as to why the trunnions were mounted below center for so long is that back in the really early days, someone made a tube with trunnions above center and it was so bad (muzzle would dip upon firing) that the backlash was to reverse the position so the recoil always held the tube on the quoin. This probably didn't really hurt much in the olden days of really long barrels and low shot weights and not too strong powder and twin trail carriages but with the evolution of the barrel to shorter and larger bore and the powder to more powerful and heavier shot, all giving more recoil, more and more stress was applied to the carriage but the powers that were were stuck with doing things the old way without understanding why it used to work but wasn't working so well now

I really like your observations and suppositions on this... having done a complete force, acceleration and resultant velocity analysis for a one pound projectile exiting a 65 pound barrel from a 265# gun AND observing how the projectile masses JUMPED with the advent of rifled tubes, it all seems likely if not obvious. Thanks for you observations.

Double D · « **Reply #63 on:** May 18, 2011, 03:52:29 AM »

Quote from: Double D on May 17, 2011, 04:32:09 PM

From John Muller's Treatise of Artillery 1780.

"Trunnions
"The method of placing the trunnions fo that their axis touches the lower furface of the bore, as is practifed all over Europe, is fo abfurd, that it is amazing no author or artift has thought proper to change it; the only reafon I have heard given for this practice, was, that by this means they were fronger fixed to the gun, and of confequnece would not break off fo foon as in any other place. As ifignificant as this reafon is, it ferves however to defend that old eftablfhed cuftom"

Do You know how hard it is to purposely type f for s?

Don't you guys read what I write....Muller said the reason given during the time for the lower trunnion was it was believed it gave the trunnions greater strength to resist being broken off.

gunsonwheels · « **Reply #64 on:** May 18, 2011, 05:40:59 AM »

I'm sure Muller is accuarte on the reason for it being started.

There is less historically documented reasons for going to mutual axes. The new country, America, right from the get-go had the attitude "whatever was done before was to be challenged for change". For the change, I still like the summary by GGaskill. Yanks wouldn't take long to change it if they had observed the guns I have observed... but we have always loaded heavy combined with regularly repeated proof firings... so our responses are pretty pronounced. That 265# gun's resultant velocity was 11 feet per second toward the rear and would typically come out of battery 12-15 feet on rough ground. But slug upset and its resulting accuracy were a things of pure functional beauty.

GGaskill · « **Reply #65 on:** May 18, 2011, 12:28:47 PM »

While I am certainly in no position to challenge Muller, the way trunnions were made in the pre-19th Century era was without rimbases, which certainly would have been a weaker attachment no matter where they joined the tube.

keith44 · « **Reply #66 on:** May 18, 2011, 03:00:31 PM »

So everyone has talked about your attention to detail, Zulu, but no one has mentioned the most obvious detail that seperates true master craftsmen (in the gun trade) from the rest. Clocking the screw slot with the wood grain is a nice touch.

Zulu · « **Reply #67 on:** May 18, 2011, 03:08:17 PM »

Quote from: keith44 on May 18, 2011, 03:00:31 PM

So everyone has talked about your attention to detail, Zulu, but no one has mentioned the most obvious detail that seperates true master craftsmen (in the gun trade) from the rest. Clocking the screw slot with the wood grain is a nice touch.

keith44,
That was done only for me. I never thought someone would notice it.
Zulu

keith44 · « **Reply #68 on:** May 18, 2011, 08:19:22 PM »

I have an appreciation for fine quality guns, it's one of the things I always look for. Nice touch.

Alas no I cannot afford to own things of such quality, but I certainly admire them.

Co. Batguano · « **Reply #69 on:** May 19, 2011, 12:32:41 PM »

Why plain sawn red oak rather than quarter sawn white oak? Wouldn't white oak be more prototypical?

Zulu · « **Reply #70 on:** May 19, 2011, 12:50:42 PM »

Quote from: Co. Batguano on May 19, 2011, 12:32:41 PM

Why plain sawn red oak rather than quarter sawn white oak? Wouldn't white oak be more prototypical?

jer2349 requested red oak. When looking for a kiln dried 2" thick X 12" wide X 12' long board in Houston, you take what you can get.

It was a very nice piece of wood.
Zulu

Zulu · « **Reply #71 on:** July 06, 2011, 12:50:25 PM »

Jer2349 sent me two pics of the Verbruggen firing. It looks like it really roars!
He asked me to post them.
Jer, what charge did you use?
Zulu

gunsonwheels · « **Reply #72 on:** July 06, 2011, 04:52:21 PM »

Truly a thing of beauty...

Zulu · « **Reply #73 on:** July 06, 2011, 05:02:31 PM »

jer2349,
I noticed you blocked the wheels to stop recoil. With those bearinged wheels, how far will that thing recoil?
Zulu

projector · « **Reply #74 on:** July 07, 2011, 04:47:09 AM »

Powerfull!...Very nice.

where did the wheels come from?

jer2349 · « **Reply #75 on:** July 07, 2011, 06:40:23 AM »

Both shots were about 2000 grain (4.5 oz) of GOEX Fg. I reside on a small hobby farm in Iowa. I have a friend who lives near 7.5 miles away. He has made me aware, with his admiration that he can hear the Verbruggan quite well. I also have a neighbor who lives about 1/4 mile away. It seems he don't appreciate the bark of a cannon or perhaps confuseing it with fireworks. Iowa fireworks law reads sparklers & snakes, nothing more. The cannon law in Iowa is the same as per a hand gun. This being no weapon discharged within 300 yards of a residence in the county. On three diffrent occasions I have had a visit by three diffrent sheriffs. All being in search of something related to illegal fireworks. I then unveil and present them the Verbruggan. Upon the completion of conversation and exchange of phone numbers. All three sheriffs have departed with admiration of this thing of beauty. With my phone calls, two sheriffs have returned to witness a salute charge. Isn't it wonderful when people can get along?

Cheers jer

jer2349 · « **Reply #76 on:** July 07, 2011, 06:50:22 AM »

The wheels came from an industrial supply house. The front wheels are 8" and the rear being 6" both being 2" tread. I can't exactly remember where I purchased them. Maybe Zulu can recall. They were relatively cheap, I think about $130 for all four.

jer2349 · « **Reply #77 on:** July 07, 2011, 07:01:11 AM »

Zulu, I never have fired it less blocking at least the rear wheels and usually the front as well. As you are aware, I am in a wheelchair. Less the blocking of the wheels I am in fear I would deplete my chair battery chasing that carriage around the country side. Cheers

Zulu · « **Reply #78 on:** July 07, 2011, 11:47:38 AM »

Quote from: jer2349 on July 07, 2011, 06:50:22 AM

The wheels came from an industrial supply house. The front wheels are 8" and the rear being 6" both being 2" tread. I can't exactly remember where I purchased them. Maybe Zulu can recall. They were relatively cheap, I think about $130 for all four.

The wheels came from Powers Industries LTD. They are located in Houston.
www.powersind.com
The 8" wheels were $28 each and 6" were $25 each. Plus tax and shipping.
They came with roller bearings and a grease nipple and had a bushing with a 1/2" hole in it which I removed and slid the wheels right over a 3/4" axle.
Zulu

keith44 · « **Reply #79 on:** July 07, 2011, 12:40:03 PM »

Having admired Zulu's work on this I must say thanks for showing it in use. Absolutely awe inspiring.

gunsonwheels · « **Reply #80 on:** July 07, 2011, 02:18:19 PM »

jer2349:

Quote

Zulu, I never have fired it less blocking at least the rear wheels and usually the front as well. As you are aware, I am in a wheelchair. Less the blocking of the wheels I am in fear I would deplete my chair battery chasing that carriage around the country side. Cheers

Reminds me of an old quote by an "ordnanced" brit: "Damn the torpedoes... full steam ahead". With a handicapped wife, we consider it a great moral victory every single time I strap her on and we go four-wheelin' up in the hills. Bet jer does too every time he hits the wick.

Sometimes you just have to not accept "can't".

So... jer: GET A BIGGER BATTERY AND LET HER RIP...??

gow

http://www.usatechguide.org/blog/superfour-all-terrain-wheelchair/

We were looking at this guy a few years ago before buying an "attendant operated" chair capable of 20+ % inclines.

Co. Batguano · « **Reply #81 on:** July 08, 2011, 07:36:04 AM »

I like that size gun. How much did SB charge for the barrel?

jer2349 · « **Reply #82 on:** July 08, 2011, 08:30:15 AM »

The price of the tube was right near 2,000. I saved a few bucks & picked it up in person.