Author Topic: Alabama to consider allowing deer hunting over bait  (Read 2810 times)

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Offline Braz

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Alabama to consider allowing deer hunting over bait
« on: January 07, 2004, 08:08:39 AM »
Article is below. I oppose this. My primary reasons are:

1) possibility of disease transfer at bait sites.

2) Will increase the annual harvest which could subsequently lead to a shortening of Alabama's generous season.

3) Don't consider it ethical to hunt over bait.

Braz


Hunting over feed

Senator: Year-round feeding would keep der hunters in state

01/04/04

RICHARD SCOTT
For The Birmingham News


Most Alabama hunters would agree that Barbour, Bullock, Henry, Lee, Macon and Russell counties rank among the state's best areas for producing deer quality and quantity.

State Sen. Myron Penn, a Democrat from the state's 28th district, would argue that the deer hunting in those counties, and throughout the state, could be even better if hunters were allowed to hunt over feed.

 
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"Other states, like Texas and Georgia, already feed year-round," said Penn, who represents those counties. "I had one hunter, who was originally opposed to this, say if you want to hunt over bait go to Texas. That's exactly why we're trying to expand our deer laws, so hunters won't go to Texas and other states and we can keep those dollars here during a time in which our state is in a financial crisis."

The issue of hunting over feed creates a passionate debate among Alabama deer hunters. That discussion will most likely reach the state Legislature next month when Penn submits a bill to legalize deer hunting over feed.

Penn's proposal is the result of two meetings during the past year with a group of approximately 40 hunters from his district.

"I represent a district where deer hunting is king," Penn said. "What we're trying to do is just enhance the deer hunting and feeding laws to where everyone can benefit while still maintaining the integrity of the sport."

Alabama law prohibits hunting over bait or feed. That does not include planted food plots, trees or shrubs. But it does preclude hunting over supplemental food containers or food scattered on the ground.

During the 8½ months when it's not deer season, supplemental feeding is permissible. That's already a popular wildlife management practice for many Alabama hunters and landowners. Allowing that practice to continue during the hunting season is an issue that is likely to divide hunters.

According to Penn's proposal, the feed will have to be placed in a container. Each supplemental food container used during the hunting season would require a $25 permit, with $20 going to the state Department of Conservation and Natural Resources and $5 going to local government.

Hunters against the bill argue that hunting over feed is not fair for the deer. Such a law also could favor hunters and landowners who can afford more permits, feeders and feed, they say.

Those who hunt on public land wonder what's going to happen if they leave food in a container for deer and someone else shows up to hunt near their container.

Another huge concern is the possibility that hunting over feed will lead to disease among deer.

"There's always the potential for disease if you're concentrating animals into one feeding area," said Stan Stewart, a wildlife biologist for the Alabama Division of Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries.

Penn heard that argument last year when his original proposal stalled in the Legislature, so he researched the issue and said he could not find any scientific evidence for likelier spread of disease.

"In fact, we've found some biologists who say that's not a concern," Penn said. "With deer feeding going on already (when it's not deer season), there would already be disease problems."

Penn, a long-time fisherman who recently became a deer hunter, has heard the long list of reservations from hunters, especially the issue of fair chase hunting.

"I fail to see how that's the case when it's already perfectly legal to hunt over grass or rye and shoot deer while they're eating the grass or rye, Penn said. You can say the grass or the rye is more natural, but at the same time if the purpose of planting the grass is to shoot the deer while they're eating the grass, that argument falls short of logic."

Penn shares hunter concerns about tossing a pile of low-protein corn onto the ground as a bait. In addition to requiring containers, the proposal will require that at least 50 percent of the feed must include proteins other than corn, such as soybeans. The size of those containers must still be defined, and it's possible the bill will require the containers to be located in or near food plots.

Penn sees several benefits to the legalization of hunting over feed: The additional revenue, the ability of hunting preserves to compete for out-of-state hunters, and easier thinning of the state's rapidly growing herd.

It would also lead to sales of more feed and feeders, which could make the bill a potentially sticky situation for Dan Moultrie, the founder and owner of Moultrie Feeders in Alabaster and the current chairman of the Conservation Advisory Board to the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources.

The 10-member board, appointed by the governor, assists in making policies for the DCNR.

Efforts to reach Moultrie for comment were unsuccessful. But another advisory board member, Louis Coles of Enterprise, attended Penn's most recent meeting with hunters in his district.

Coles said a meeting between Penn and the Advisory Board is tentatively planned for sometime in the next two weeks.

When the Advisory Board holds its next open meeting at 9 a.m. on March 4 at the State Capitol Auditorium in Montgomery, Penn's plan is sure to be a popular topic of discussion.

"There's a growing concern out there that people would like to be able to hunt over feed," Coles said. "Twenty-six states allow you to hunt over feed now, including Georgia.... I venture to say that if you took a poll, probably 90 percent of the deer hunters would want to be able to hunt over feed."

DCNR officials such as Stewart and Fred Harders, an assistant director for the Alabama Division of Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries, say they need to know more about the proposal before taking a stand.

"There are pros and cons," Stewart said. "In Texas, hunting over feed has been legal for years. You've got the same thing in Florida. In the North Central states and the Great Lakes states, hunting deer over feed has been traditional.

"It's just different philosophies about what's accepted and what isn't."

Offline huntsman

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« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2004, 08:39:49 AM »
IMHO, there is nothing ethically wrong with hunting deer that are eating food supplied by man, whether that be scattered corn, a food plot, or whatever. If you carry the "unfair to the deer" argument far enough, its not even fair that we live on the same planet as the whitetail deer. Deer still have their five senses, they can choose whether or not to visit food offerings, and their behavior can be patterned in other ways, all of which are strangely not considered unethical (deer drives, food plots, attractive scents, etc.).

What is disturbing is the government trying to profit by requiring a costly permit for feeding wildlife, and making it an economic issue. If feeding is allowed, then anyone ought to be able to do it anytime and anywhere he or she wants to, not at the discretion of a bureaucracy. And certainly the state shouldn't be trying to profit from feeding deer. That, to me, is far more unethical than feeding wildlife during hunting season.
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Offline Graybeard

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« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2004, 08:50:09 AM »
Personally I kinda hope it fails. All it will really be doing tho is legalizing what is already a wide spread practice and add in effect a $25 tax on each feeder.

I think folks believe using a feeder is an automatic trophy buck for them but this isn't the case. In TX where I've seen a lot of use of feeders it is mostly the coons, crows, does and small bucks that get the feed not the big bucks.

I have a bit of a personal problem shooting deer over a feeder and can't honestly say why. I'd just prefer not to. Hogs I have no problem whatsoever hunting over a feeder. And I don't have a problem with others doing it if they wish. I just don't really want to.

GB


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Offline Dutch/AL

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« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2004, 09:37:03 AM »
Personally, I'm considering moving out of the state of Alabama due to the condition of the deer herd and current management practices. However, it's not a problem that legalizing hunting over bait will solve.

So they've come up with another way to generate additional revenue. That's good in the sense that revenue encourages longevity for the sport as it will with most anything. It's bad for those individuals who THINK it is an unfair practice, or that it will cause CWD in Alabama.

As greybeard already stated, baiting is a widespread practice already even though it's not legal. I wonder how much worse it will be if they make people buy a permit to do what they are already doing. A lot of clubs as well as individuals which hunt legally during season, feed corn year round when they are not hunting.

If baiting is such a bad thing ethically, then it would stand to reason that the state should outlaw hunting within 100 yards of any type food source, including food plots, acorns, honeysuckle, honey locust beans, kudzu, cutovers, young browse,  and agricultural fields including cotton. They just love cotton seeds you know.   :)
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Offline qweeksdraw

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« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2004, 01:21:27 PM »
Don't let anybody fool you, its all about money and  mans inability to kill deer in their world.  You will see more deer, and you will kill more deer, that is a fact.  But a huge can of worms comes with baiting.  In mich. the big private tracts of hunting  land use to dump double bottom tankers of carrots and suger beets by the tons.  Now how is the average hunter  going to keep up with that.  That is just one of the problems that the baiting issue manifests.

my2c.  qweeksdraw

Offline Graybeard

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« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2004, 03:54:38 PM »
Quote
Personally, I'm considering moving out of the state of Alabama due to the condition of the deer herd and current management practices.


Dutch, would you elaborate please. What's so wrong with the condition of the deer herd and current management practices you feel the need to leave Bama over it?

GB


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Offline grouper sandwich

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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2004, 04:04:17 PM »
While hunting over bait is legal in Florida, as long as you maintain the station year round and it was set at least six months before the oepning of the season, hunting over bait is NOT legal in Georgia.  In Georgia you have to be a minimum of 200 yards from any feeding station and the feed has to be out of the line of sight.  If you're good, you can catch them coming and going, but you can't hunt over bait.  In Florida is is perfectly legal, and I do it to cull does during antlerless season and bow season.  I've never seen a shooter buck at a feeding station in daylight hours.

Offline Dutch/AL

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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2004, 04:20:06 PM »
Glad you asked greybeard. :-)

First of all, I don't like the buck to doe ratios, which eliminates a defined rut. We've got deer rutting in some areas in November, and other areas as late as March.

I also don't like a 3 and 1/2 month total deer season. It educates the deer to the point that in a lot of areas they go totally nocturnal before it's time to breed.

I also don't like the fact that a hunter can kill unlimited bucks, most of which end up being spikes and forkies which further upsets the balance. Rarely will these same hunters kill equal to or twice as many does. In some areas we've got 20 does for every buck.

The truth is, to be a good successful deer hunter in Alabama, you've got to take a lot of time off from work, spend a lot of money on gas going back and forth, and have the tenacity to keep it up for 14 or 15 weeks straight without getting burned out.

I know there are guys who can go 5 times and kill 4 deer, but most I know don't.

While we are down here hunting this way, there are guys in other states with a 2 to 4 week season who are hunting a lot less and taking a LOT nicer deer and having a lot better quality experience whether they are hunting for meat or horns.

I know a lot of people like to meat hunt, but I can get T-bones at Winn-Dixie. They taste a lot better too and we all know the T-bones are cheaper. :)

I guess after 18 years of hunting in Alabama, I'm just kinda ready for a change. Maybe. :-)
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Offline ihuntbucks

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« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2004, 11:02:47 PM »
Man.there's a lot of different thoughts on this topic. :lol:  First I'll have to agree with those on not making it legal on the bait issue.I,myself have feeders on a food plot on some 40 acres of private land.I have been feeding deer,coons,possoem(sp?),birds,ect. for several months.Have never hunted it yet.(I believe the law in Bama is you have to take feeder down 10 days before hunting)You of course can't hunt over it,and I wouldn't want to anyway.I also think it is a money issue.But know the big boys will have the advantage if it does pass,cuz you know "money talks and bull crap walks". On Winn-Dixie.I don't know about that.A tenderloin chopped up with rice and gravy is pretty good.On thinning the deer population,no worrys here;Hell I never even see them much less shot one :lol:  :roll:  So I think they are safe in my neck of the woods anyway.  Off the soap box...my 2 cents worth........................Rick
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Offline Braz

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« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2004, 01:16:40 AM »
For the Alabama hunters, here's the link
to the Alabama legislature website. It lists phone numbers, addresses, and (some) e-mail address of the state senators and representatives. Let them know your views.

http://www.legislature.state.al.us

Braz

Offline Graybeard

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« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2004, 05:13:51 AM »
Dutch, I would certainly agree with you as to the buck to doe ratio being badly out of whack in Bama. But then it is most places these days. Back when we had nearly none folks were taught to NEVER EVER shoot a doe and that training has taken too well. Now does need to be shot and shot heavily. Too many won't and will shoot a spike buck standing beside a doe and let the doe walk. Bad.

But in much of the state they aren't giving hunters enough opportunity to shoot does. It seems to get better each year however with more and more doe days and now you can shoot two of them per day. If folks would when they can it would go a long way to solving the buck to doe ratio. Over all I don't fault the Game and Fish boys on this one as much as hunters who shoot the small bucks rather than does.


As to the rut it is a double edge sword here. Part of the problem of the November to March rut is the buck to doe ratio but part is also the source of the deer. Until the mid to late 60s we had darn few deer in most parts of Bama. They were restocked heavily and the deer stocked came from herds in south Bama but also from NC and MI as well. Those other out of state deer normally rut much earlier than native Bama bucks and that's where the early rut comes from. I hunt land with primarily those and the rut is mostly over by the time gun season opens. In CWMA many bucks have dropped their antlers before season ends. Native Bama deer normally rut in January and if the buck to doe ratio was in line most of it wold take place in season. But there are doe fawns of the year especially those born early of does descended from the out of state deer that come into heat late and that keeps some rut going also.

As to the long season I take an opposite view on that. I love it. Can hunt when I want rather than having to rush things. I'd sure hate to see that changed. Doing so might make me want to move.

While I personally like the unlimited bucks which for me really only means my season isn't over when I kill one as I seldom kill over a couple a season and don't even shoot one every season. Haven't the last three seasons really only does. Still a reasonable limit on bucks would no doubt reduce the kill on young bucks while still giving enough chances to not end the season for a hunter when he takes one. If more does were taken it would help as much or more than anything I  believe. I'd sure have no problem with a a reduced limit but wouldn't support a one buck limit. Two I might and three for sure I'd support. I don't see me ever killing over that and can't think of many years I've taken that many. Heck many seasons I don't SEE that many.

I don't take off from work. I don't work. Us old retired folks don't have that problem.  :-D  My normal routine is to hunt some early in bow season and if I do can usually take a doe or two and some times I might shoot a buck but have generally concentrated on removing does with bow. I then hunt heavily the opening week of gun season and then sporadically thru the rest of season. In the past that has given me one to five deer per season most often with 2-3 being average. This season I've only been in the woods three days. One during the early muzzle loader season when I arrived too late and scared one off getting my warm clothes on. Opening day when I took a pair and one more time when I saw only a spike buck and let him walk. Haven't been back since.

I reckon this is the least hunting I've likely done since I started deer hunting. I don't eat deer meat. I've tried it every way imaginable including about 20 different "oh you just gotta try it the way I cook it" ways. I just plain hate the taste so have given up eating it. So now I either give them to someone who wants it or to the Hunters Feeding the Hungry Program. I think this is one reason I have reduced my hunting days. It is just more trouble than it's worth to me since I don't eat the meat. May just go back to squirrel hunting.

GB


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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline ihookem

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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2004, 06:30:53 AM »
I know I live a world awy from "Bama" but  whoever brought up this idea in your state really opened up a can of worms. It's hard to explain, but When noone baited in Wisconsin, it was good  deer hunting. Deer moved all day long. Saw deer every day unless it was a fluke. Even saw deer when it was  warm, sunny and calm. I remember how I loved hunting, with a passion.  Now, I don't even care to hunt the gun or early bow season the way everyone baits. These deer fill up on corn at night  so much they just don't move during the day unless the weather is real bad, like snowstorms and below 0 temps. A neighbor on the next 40 or 80ac.  that baits heavily can turn your hunting land into a place  almost useless to hunt on.  It got so bad were I hunted for 15 years I hardly hunt there at all anymore. It is even worse on and around public land. I doubt I will ever get to "Bama" for any reason, much less to hunt, so It won't affect me but with three plus months of open season I don't see the point anyway.   Also it brings on all kinds of problems not mentioned be baiting advocates.  I can tell "yall" It changes hunting in northern Wisconsin and not for the better.

Offline freddogs

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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2004, 11:06:30 AM »
:D I agree with ihookem. Deer hunting in WI isn't better with baiting. More deer are not killed . It really doesn't affect the deer ratio. It means deer spend less time feeding and wandering so you don't see as many. In Wisconsin you don't see that many bucks at feed stations during daytime hours. It can contribute to spread of disease. I don't see a problem ethically but I don't want to sit over a bait. All the problem ihookem mentioned I can confirm. It would be best if they don't start baiting. If they want more meat and better horns shoot more does instead of young bucks.[/u][/b]

Offline qweeksdraw

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« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2004, 12:42:28 PM »
Like I said in a previous post that I don't hunt over bait because I have other hunters that bait heavy so I don't need too.  All I do is put my stand on my property between them and I get shots at them coming and going.  But after gun season starts they go nocternal big time.  Some were avoiding the bait like was laced with cwd. But early season you will get good close shots at bucks and does.

I know guys that won't hunt because they ran out of bait, no need to even go out if you run out of bait, once you gettem coming in they will hit you every day.  If you run out, they just go to the next guys pile.  Some times its like shooting your neibors cows.

best qweeksdraw

Offline april

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« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2004, 06:10:20 PM »
This whole thing is a big mind screw.  For ever, we've (in Bama) been taught that it was taboo to hunt over bait, and those who did (in Bama) were poachers and unethical.  Now, they're saying,..."Oops..sorry, nevermind...go ahead."  But, money talks.  Bama is gonna get some extra income from the permit fees, they're gonna get extra money from the hunters that live here but go elsewhere to hunt (by them actually purchasing licences here), leases may get extra money (and they pay taxes) because now they can boast to "casual hunters" about being able to hunt over bait and it may attract em from other states....the folks who sell the feeders are gonna make a killin, and you can bet your britches that the price of corn will go up.  It's good for "economical Alabama"...but for me, it will never hold water, just because for so long, the game laws that were set helped me paint a picture of hunters (in Alabama) that hunt over bait (illegally), and just because they decide that this will/can change, that picture isn't so easily erased.  Sure, it would no longer be illegal and unethical....but, it's not something I'm gonna rush out to do.

Offline jonr

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Cronic Wastings Disease....
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2004, 06:33:58 AM »
Hey everyone. Just thought I would add my 2 cents on this topic.
I hunt on the MS/AL border in Ethelsville, AL. This is in Pickens county.
I have a friend this is doing her graduate work at MSU in their wildlife biology program. Ironically enough she was telling me about the cronic wastings disease less than a month ago. This has become a problem out west and is headed our way. There is no cure right now. All deer/elk/etc. in an infected area need to be put down. This disease is spread by saliva among other things. Feeders and salt blocks just make it worse. If one infected deer feeds at that area, then the whole herd can become infected.
This would be truely devistating for our state deer population.
I will include a few internet links if anyone is interested.

http://www.ewradio.org/CWD_extended.aspx

http://www.cwd-info.org

Jonr

Offline rpseven

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« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2004, 05:20:41 AM »
I don't see anything wrong with setting feeders out and feeding the deer  during the off season. But I think it is just peer laziness on the hunters part to sit over a pile of corn during deer season and hunt. LAZY, LAZY, LAZY. Get off your lazy butt and hunt. That is why it is called hunting!!!