Author Topic: Sensible Keith? (Read 3078 times)

catmandu · « **on:** November 21, 2011, 07:50:14 AM »

Has anybody any info on an LBT mould refered to as "sensible Keith"?

I get the Keith part, but what makes it sensible? I checked the website with no luck,
so I guess they are not current production.

Are they any good? Any experience with them?

Inquireing minds want to know?

Thanks

Paul in WNY

Nobade · « **Reply #1 on:** November 21, 2011, 09:24:44 AM »

Veral's room is just below. Just ask him!

anachronism · « **Reply #2 on:** November 21, 2011, 01:54:20 PM »

I think the "Sensible Keith" is actually a product of Mountain Molds. Veral does offer a traditional Keith, as well as a gaschecked version of the traditional Keith. There are also plenty of other designs he offers, and since he's a custom shop, you can likely get anything that you want from him.

Anduril · « **Reply #3 on:** November 22, 2011, 04:06:30 PM »

from mountainmolds dot com:

"Sensible Keith (SK) Similar to the Original Keith except the groove diameter is 89% of the band diameter, rather than 85%. This helps the bullet to drop out of the mold easier."

of the original Keith, Dan says this, "Original Keith (K) This bullet follow's Elmer's rules closely, excepting the grease grooves have a 55° angle instead of being perfectly square (I tried making perfectly square grooves but the bullets didn't want to fall out of the mold). To tell you the truth, the Keith design has seldom shot well in my guns, but some people do have good luck with it, or just want a true Keith bullet for nostalgic reasons. The groove diameter is 85% of the bullet diameter. The standard Keith crimp groove is 0.050" long, while the XL Keith crimp groove is 0.070" long."
..

Nobade · « **Reply #4 on:** November 23, 2011, 02:22:07 AM »

Oops, good call. I had forgotten Dan made those and not Veral.

bfrshooter · « **Reply #5 on:** December 08, 2011, 08:27:49 AM »

We need to look at the Keith. It is no more then a decent bullet. Fooling with them for near 58 years has shown me the gun itself needs to be .000000001" out of line, cylinder to bore.
The 429421 and 358156 were decent and I had good accuracy. But I never knew back then what accuracy from a revolver really was. I was shooting the .44 in 1956 to over 400 yards but targets were fairly large.
Examine the bullet! A little shoulder to cut a round hole in paper. An ogive smaller then the bore so it can't align in the forcing cone, the little shoulder tries but can't. It gets wiped on one side unless he gun is perfect.
Then most use soft lead and the bullet slumps into a RNFP and loses the grease grooves before leaving the cylinder.
A few think the shoulder cuts meat in game---surprise, it never touches. The pressure wave from the nose moves all away from the shoulder.
The one large grease groove is not good either and reduces accuracy.
Along comes the LBT and all of the jacketed bullets with the proper nose and ogive to center the bullet and align the cylinder.
Yet the Keith just looks sexy and is the major selling point.
The thing should just die out, it was conceived as a paper shooter and a do all, but it does not do all.
Here is a soft Keith!

Frank2 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 08, 2011, 03:31:43 PM »

bfrshooter:

Quote

Then most use soft lead and the bullet slumps into a RNFP and loses the grease grooves before leaving the cylinder.
A few think the shoulder cuts meat in game---surprise, it never touches. The pressure wave from the nose moves all away from the shoulder.

Tell me. If it turns into a RNFP in the gun then how does the shoulder fail on game if there is no shoulder anymore?

blind ear · « **Reply #7 on:** December 08, 2011, 03:56:05 PM »

Maybe that hydrostatic effect from the nose keeps the flesh expanded away from the sholder on impact and that shifts to front expansion along with loss of force. I don't know.ear

Graybeard · « **Reply #8 on:** December 08, 2011, 06:02:49 PM »

The guy is full of BS. The main thing he knew was to keep the photo small since he was showing photos of two totally different bullet styles not the same one after passing down a barrel.

catmandu · « **Reply #9 on:** December 20, 2011, 06:04:34 AM »

I asked about this mould because I wasn't sure about a Keith PB in the 357 Max. Even Glen Fryxell advises on the use of GC boolits. I decided to go with it anyway, (at least one good Christmas present) Well it looks good to me.
358-180-LBTK Two ample lube grooves and a crimp groove. Nose looks like my 358156GC.

Here is a pic. (best the cell phone could do)

Thanks for the help.
Paul in WNY

catmandu · « **Reply #10 on:** December 20, 2011, 06:15:20 AM »

Here is another try on posting a pic.

Graybeard · « **Reply #11 on:** December 20, 2011, 11:22:37 AM »

That's a good looking bullet but there is nothing Keith about it. Lee has one for 45s that looks very much like that I believe but only as a two cavity mould. If it was a six cavity I'd have to give it a try.

I like Keith style bullets and LBT style both. I use both and have no complaints with either. I have Veral's four cavity moulds for .357 magnums and my .35 Remington Marlin in 160, 180 and 200 grain weights. I also have a mould for the Lyman 358156 and their 358429 as well. I have an RCBS mould for 200 grain bullets.

The Lyman 358156GC is a Thompson design as is their 429244GC mould. Both are favorites of mine.

catmandu · « **Reply #12 on:** December 21, 2011, 02:05:47 PM »

This looks like a great time to ask the question "What makes a bullet a Keith?"
I thought the SWC style with the nose proportion of the original Keith boolit (as described in Glen Fryxell's article) and ample lube grooves with a crimp groove made it a Keith?
Please tell me more?
And why this LBT is not a Keith. I want to learn.

Paul in WNY

Graybeard · « **Reply #13 on:** December 21, 2011, 06:27:03 PM »

I'm prolly not the best person in the world to explain it but I'll give it a shot. First some photos of Keith style bullets.

The first one is the Lyman 429421 for the 44 caliber guns. It is or more correctly WAS an original Elmer Keith design but Lyman has made changes to his original design so today it's not exactly to Keith's specs but is still close. The second is his design for the 45s it is Lyman 452424 I think.

The third is as close to the original Keith design as you can get for the 38s/.357s. It is Lyman 358429 and I have a really old four cavity mould of this one and mine at least is true to Keith's design. Lastly is the RCBS 44-250-KT which is more true to the original design that today's Lyman mould I believe.

Now look at what they all have in common. Note all have three driving bands. I believe to be true to the Keith design they all must be of equal size and I think that size is 0.100" but I'm going on memory here. But three equal width bands with one and ONLY one wide deep lube groove is required. That lube groove must be square bottom not round bottom as current Lyman 429421 moulds are. Nose shape plays into it but isn't all of it by far. That front band is what cuts the clean hole and yes a lot of other designs share it these days. It is supposed to help support the cartridge centered in the cylinder by being a tight fit to help center the bullet on its journey toward the barrel. It must also be plain base not bevel base or gas check.

I'm sure someone else can better explain it than I did but those are the things I remember and look for to see if a bullet is a Keith design.

LAH · « **Reply #14 on:** December 27, 2011, 03:01:44 PM »

Here are a couple pictures of bullets I cast. They are call Keith bullets by most people.

Anduril · « **Reply #15 on:** December 27, 2011, 04:38:55 PM »

the photos show it like Graybeard told it:

Plain base
Three equal width drive bands
One square (flat bottom) grease groove
..

catmandu · « **Reply #16 on:** January 11, 2012, 06:04:57 AM »

Thank you.
Those pics make it clear. (good casting too)

Paul in WNY

LAH · « **Reply #17 on:** January 11, 2012, 09:01:04 AM »

Quote from: catmandu on January 11, 2012, 06:04:57 AM

Thank you.
Those pics make it clear. (good casting too)

Paul in WNY

You're welcome.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #18 on:** February 03, 2012, 02:51:27 AM »

Keith bullet profiles are just "sexy". No doubt about it.

Veral · « **Reply #19 on:** March 07, 2012, 04:53:25 PM »

Perhaps you'll be interesting in a bit of Keith lore, which I read many years before I started casting.

When Elmer 'designed' his 44 bullet, which is 'THE" Keith bullet, he studied to see which cast bullets won the most matches, and it was a 375 caliber flatnose made by Lyman and used in 38-55 rifles. So, he contacted Lyman and had them make that bullet with three drive bands to fit the 44. The 'true Keith bullet' when you measure the nose diameter right up close to the shoulder is .375 diameter or very close. Elmer got good extra good results, and in fact was my idol back then. He still is though he's dead for quite a few years. Guess I wish I could have been the man in his saddle during all those outfitting years!

The true keith bullets which I make are copies for bullets which personal friends of Keith sent to me with decent documentation that they were authentic. So the three authentic Keith bullets, I make as exact as I can. I make many SWC bullets based on the Keith nose profile but if they are not exact, I call them LBTK. These can be shortened noses, lengthened bodies, gas check, various lube grooves, any change the customer wants. It would perhaps be better if I simply called them SWC's but because the form is based on the true Keith profiles I chose that method of keeping the record clear. One example which seems to be very much liked is an exact copy of the 44 cut for 45 caliber, which comes out at about 270 grains. It COULD be called a Keith, but it isn't exact, because it is fatter with no other change, but that makes it an LBTK.
Veral at LBT

jspringer · « **Reply #20 on:** March 15, 2012, 03:30:43 AM »

LAH---What bullet mold did you use to cast the bottom three bullets. That is a nice looking bullet. It looks like a .45 caliber but what weight is it. Thanks

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #21 on:** March 16, 2012, 12:08:27 PM »

Ive got a ton of swc molds and a few kieths. Lyman and rcbs make close copys as does veral. For the most part they shoot real well. the bad rap the keith gets is everyone one with a lathe cuts a swc and calls it a keith. I can say that hands down i have more molds i consider duds that are swcs then i do lfns. bfr man i agree that in many cases the swc sholder does nothing. Why? because most casters are still under then impression that soft lead is what should be used to cast them and if shot that way they basicaly slump into a lnf or wfn shape. Problem is they dont do it the same everytime so accuracy suffers and theres no shoulder left to cut and bottom line is even if they dont there still putting the same size meplat into an animal that an lfn is and ive killed lots of animals with both swcs and with lfns and personaly could never see the diffence on game reaction between the two. Ill even throw wfns into the mix and say it would be about impossible to prove they hit animals a bit harder then lfns. theres just to much differnce in reaction between two differnt deer at two differnt times to make a fair call. Same goes for wound chanels. Move the bullet two inches and the wound channel changes no matter which bullet you shoot so in order to really give concrete opinions youd have to shoot 100s of deer the same size at the same distance and not to many have that oportunity. The rest of us just speculate. Same goes for the sholder cutting two differnt wound channels will show two differnt results. I dont think anyone can really say without any doubt what so ever if it cuts or not. Just speculation and like i said it dont mean a pinch anyway.

LAH · « **Reply #22 on:** March 24, 2012, 03:28:39 PM »

Quote from: jspringer on March 15, 2012, 03:30:43 AM

LAH---What bullet mold did you use to cast the bottom three bullets. That is a nice looking bullet. It looks like a .45 caliber but what weight is it. Thanks

Sorry I missed your post. The bottom 3 bullets are cast from an NEI#221 mould Walt listed as a .411-220-PB. I list the bullet as a 41-230-K or a 41 mag bullet at 230 grains. I size them mostly at .411. We're making a run of them now lubed with Veral's famous LBT Blue.