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Offline Cannoneer

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HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« on: October 22, 2008, 08:35:55 PM »
 I found this YT video by accident the other day, and I can't get enough of it; it's of the HMS Victory at Portsmouth's Royal Navy dockyard firing a full broadside in the evening. I suppose if one were going to be a stickler for detail that a broadside really means all the guns on one side of the ship fired at nearly the same time, but if they had done that, it would have been a much shorter show.

http://www.youtube.com/v/uiRbJRNKyv8&hl=en&fs=1&





Edit: Modified YouTube link.
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2008, 08:53:36 PM »
I'm not sure it applies here but in the later days of fighting sail, the broadsides were so heavy that they had to resort to rolling fire so they didn't damage the ship from recoil.
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2008, 10:18:36 PM »
Quote
rolling fire so they didn't damage the ship from recoil.

Interesting, do you have a source for that, haven't heard it before.  I know that there was a procedure called "fire as she bears" which allowed each gunner to fire as the target was properly aligned according to the ship's roll.

Technically, VICTORY's firing looks and sounds like it might be pyro charges instead of what we think of as a real blank charge firing.  I say that because the smoke and fire plume didn't extend what looked like as far enough from the muzzles, and instead of a deep "boom" I'd expect to hear from a big naval gun, it is more of a fireworks type sound.  But it is hard to tell what it should sound like because of the camera's location and whatever unknown effects the ship's location had to do with it.  The flame color looked reddish, correct for black powder (pure pyro powder would be a white flash) but I wonder how this was done.  I do think whatever was in the guns, they would have been fired electrically from a control panel. 

Are VICTORY's guns all repro like those on CONSTITUTION or are they real, or a mix?  If the guns are repro, and were only intended for show, I'd expect they were "fired" with pyro charges so the repro guns wouldn't be stressed too much.

I noticed from the comments on the video that the present labour party government is trying the sell the ship.  Maybe some Frenchmen will buy it, and Horatio Nelson will be turnin' in his grave.

That may have inspired this other video, a tour of the immaculate veteran.

For sure if I had the bucks, VICTORY would be at the top of my shopping list.  I collect military relics and you can't get better than this, even if the guns are repros.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au08Z3NRi74&NR=1
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Offline and7barton

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2008, 10:54:53 PM »
It's my understanding that all the guns on Victory are fibreglass replicas, due to the weight problem of having real iron guns on board; therefore, all those shots would have been pyros. I'm actually surprised that it was allowed to happen on such a valuable and irreplaceable relic, because of the fire-risk from the sparks blowing back into the ship.
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Offline Terry C.

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2008, 12:21:00 AM »
Quote from: cannonmn on October 22, 2008, 10:18:36 PM
For sure if I had the bucks, VICTORY would be at the top of my shopping list.

It ain't the initial cost that gits'ya, it's the upkeep!
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2008, 01:44:49 AM »
Quote
It ain't the initial cost that gits'ya, it's the upkeep!

Good point, when I'm fanticizing about having enough money to buy it, I'll fantacize a little more so I have enough money to maintain it too.

The very worst part of these old wooden ships is when the timbers below the waterline rot enough so you have to do a major overhaul, you're talkin' tens of millions at least there.  If VICTORY is due for one of those overhauls, I don't think I'd touch it.  Yeah, there's my excuse, I'd gladly buy it but it needs overhaul!

My offer would stipulate that the Brit Government had to come up with 108 original iron cannons of approximately the proper size.  I wouldn't put 'em on the ship, too much of a strain, I'd just mount them around the castle I'd buy with the rest of my fantasy fortune.

Gotta go buy some lottery tickets, 'bye!
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2008, 05:19:29 AM »
Yo Dan,

 Check out "Swedish Ship Gotheborg Gun Salute to London" in the Related Videos list; the guns make some beautiful smoke rings.

http://www.youtube.com/v/va36UjdapRY&hl=en&fs=1&




Edit: Modified YouTube link. 
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Offline Tropico

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2008, 06:20:27 AM »
I've stayed out of this one for a bit ., just to see ..., but I cant sit still any more.  That broad side was from Trafalgar 200 2005 ., where the men from over 160 ships from over 160 countries gatheerd and waited on their decks for the Queens Inspection as these navies acknowleged the accomplishments and death of Lord Nelson .  I've studied this one quite well and have some fabulous hard backs on Nelson and all the ships he commanded and when. He is a fantastic subject.  The video of the ship is the 52 gun salute from later on during that evening. There was a re-enactment and a fireworks show that costed millions elsewhere in the harbor.
 

Lord Nelson's full title, at the time of his death, was Vice Admiral of the White The Right Honourable Horatio, Viscount Nelson, Knight of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath. In addition, he was Baron Nelson, of the Nile and of Burnham Thorpe in the County of Norfolk, Baron Nelson, of the Nile and of Hillborough in the County of Norfolk, Duke of Bronte in the nobility of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, Knight of the Grand Cross of the Order of St Ferdinand and of Merit and a Knight of the Ottoman Empire's Order of the Crescent,Knight Grand Commander of the Order of St Joachim, Colonel of the Marines, Freeman of Norwich, Bath, Yarmouth, London, Salisbury and Exeter

I could be wrong..., I have been before ., but really I dont think HMS Victory is for sale. Thats like selling General George Washingtons farm.

"England expects that every man will do his duty"

( By the way ,., we *The United States* sent the USS Siapan )

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Offline GGaskill

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2008, 09:36:41 AM »
Interesting, do you have a source for that, haven't heard it before.

It was in a discussion of the creating of the first French and English iron naval ships, La Gloire and HMS Warrior.  I don't remember what publication the article was in.
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Offline and7barton

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2008, 11:07:37 AM »
Quote-
My offer would stipulate that the Brit Government had to come up with 108 original iron cannons of approximately the proper size.  I wouldn't put 'em on the ship, too much of a strain, I'd just mount them around the castle I'd buy with the rest of my fantasy fortune.
[/quote]

I imagine that all of the Victory's guns are still around...... a lot of them are probably still standing around in the naval premises in Portsmouth; they DO have a lot of cannon ornamentally displayed in the grounds - others may be on loan to various big military HQ's.
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Offline Rickk

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2008, 01:57:39 PM »
I guess I need about 99 more or so naval  guns to impress the U-tube crowd now?
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2008, 06:51:34 PM »
Quote
The very worst part of these old wooden ships is when the timbers below the waterline rot enough so you have to do a major overhaul, you're talkin' tens of millions at least there.  If VICTORY is due for one of those overhauls, I don't think I'd touch it.  Yeah, there's my excuse, I'd gladly buy it but it needs overhaul!

 The Victory is in permanent dry-dock: The HMS Victory is the oldest commissiond war ship in the world, the USS Constitution is the oldest commissioned war ship that is still afloat.


 
Quote
That broad side was from Trafalgar 200 2005 ., where the men from over 160 ships from over 160 countries gatheerd and waited on their decks for the Queens Inspection as these navies acknowleged the accomplishments and death of Lord Nelson .


Tropico, your absolutely right, this broadside salute was to celebrate the 200th anniversary of the British Royal Navy (and Nelson) defeating the combined forces of the French and Spanish Navies at Trafalgar in 1805.
I don't think the British government would ever sell the Victory to a private party that would then try to turn it into an amusement park, I believe what their contemplating is trying to find another dignified way to raise money (other than taxes) to pay for the proper maintenance that the ship requires and deserves. Though I have to admit that it appears that many Brits themselves are not all that happy about these developments.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/7612554.stm
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Offline A.Roads

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2008, 10:49:05 AM »
"It's my understanding that all the guns on Victory are fibreglass replicas, due to the weight problem of having real iron guns on board; therefore, all those shots would have been pyros. I'm actually surprised that it was allowed to happen on such a valuable and irreplaceable relic, because of the fire-risk from the sparks blowing back into the ship."

The barrels certainly look the part but you are correct, except for a very few they are fibreglass. The same goes for the majority of the guns on the "Warrior".
The broadside therefore had to be pure pyro technics - pretty impressive to do that without setting fire to anything or damaging delicate fibreglass muzzles.
Adrian
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2008, 11:07:08 AM »
 I have an electronic feeler out to an authority in England that should have some specifics on how the  charges were rigged; and Adrian & and7barton this has nothing to do with not trusting your pronouncements that the barrels have been reproduced in fiberglass, I'm just curious to find out how the pyrotechnicians managed to stage this without damaging the barrels, because there's a frame in the video that appears to me to show a gun's muzzle outlined in the gunport by the explosion's flash.
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2008, 06:59:18 PM »
That was a thing of beauty no matter how it was done.
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2009, 08:44:07 AM »
At the time of the original posting of this thread I contacted a Mr. Peter Winterbottom, who was at that time the Honorable Secretary of the Society for Nautical Research, which is an organization that raises money to care for the HMS Victory among other things. He responded to my questions like a very gracious English gentleman, and although he didn't have specific knowledge of the Victory's current armament, or how the salute was carried out, he did supply me with the name and email address of the "Keeper and Curator of the HMS Victory," whom he informed me, would be certain to have the information I was looking for. I sent four or five different emails to Mr. Peter Goodwin, the curator of the Victory at the time, and also a widely acknowledged author of books on the history of sailing warships, but he was evidently too involved with these other endeavors, to take the time to respond.

The other day I was looking for information about the age of sail, and came across a website that contained this listing of the iron cannon still on board the HMS Victory while on display in dry dock.

"Victory's existing iron guns
There are 12 iron Napoleonic guns remaining on board the Victory today: 9 x 32 pounders on the lower gun deck, and 3 x 24 pounders on the middle gun deck. Each are of the Blomefield pattern, designed by Sir Thomas Blomefield, the Inspector Governor of Ordnance.

It is very unlikely that any of these guns were in the ship at Trafalgar as all were removed in 1806 when the ship was repaired. From the records the existing iron guns were put into the ship on 5 April 1808 when the ship was re-arming for deployment in the Baltic, and inspected by the Inspector of Ordnance two days later.

When guns were put into a ship, a record was made of the manufacturers name and the gun's individual number.

Manufacturers names, in the abbreviated form, were generally marked on the left trunnion. The 12 iron guns have the following marks:

W.Co. - Walker & Company, of Rotheram, Yorkshire.
H.Co. - James Henckle & Company, Wandsworth, London
ACB. - Alexander Brodie, on the River Severn

Ten of the eleven iron guns, cast by Walker & Company, are fitted with copper vent bushes, an innovation that was intoduced after Trafalgar. Guns fitted with copper vent bushes are stamped 'CVC' on top of the cascable. The twelfth gun, the 24 pounder sited near the entrance of the Victory Gallery, Royal Navy Museum, cast by Alexander Brodie has an iron vent bush.

The dockside guns
The 21 guns sited on the dockside around the Victory are short barrelled 32 pounders made during the reign of George III, but were not issued until after his death. These guns, dated either 1847 or 1848, most were manufactured by Henckle & Co. were used as the saluting battery on board the Victory when she was moored in Portsmouth harbour. These guns fired the salute to Queen Victoria on the occasion of her Coronation and also fired when her funeral Cortege passed HMS Victory on its way from the Isle of Wight for her burial. All these guns were removed from the ship in 1922."

All the other guns that are displayed on the HMS Victory's decks are replicas.

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Offline KABAR2

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2009, 05:43:05 PM »
Quote from: Boom J on June 08, 2009, 08:44:07 AM

 

The dockside guns
The 21 guns sited on the dockside around the Victory are short barrelled 32 pounders made during the reign of George III, but were not issued until after his death. These guns, dated either 1847 or 1848, most were manufactured by Henckle & Co. were used as the saluting battery on board the Victory when she was moored in Portsmouth harbour. These guns fired the salute to Queen Victoria on the occasion of her Coronation and also fired when her funeral Cortege passed HMS Victory on its way from the Isle of Wight for her burial. All these guns were removed from the ship in 1922."

 



These guns could not have been cast during George III  reign as he died in 1820 these were cast much later.
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2009, 06:50:43 AM »
Quote from: KABAR2 on June 08, 2009, 05:43:05 PM

These guns could not have been cast during George III  reign as he died in 1820 these were cast much later.

Good call Allen, and of course you're right; if the dates given are correct then the identification of the royal cypher cannot be, and vice versa.
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Offline RocklockI

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2009, 05:29:49 AM »
how in the heck could the gun crews even think about a reload with all that smoke ...

underway some might have blown out i guess ..... looks like a bug bomb ....a very big bug bomb
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2011, 10:55:55 PM »
This YouTube vid shows how the pyro-tech's rigged the broadside display. I thought that perhaps steel mortar tubes had been placed inside the fiberglass replica gun's bores, but the charges are actually strapped on the ouside of the barrels. It's kind of amazing to me that these folks fashioned those charges with just enough pop to create a flash and blow a relatively realistic looking smoke funnel out from the muzzles, while the big booms were made by synchronized explosions from tubes placed alongside the ship in drydock. 

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Offline KABAR2

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2011, 05:21:02 AM »
The replica cannon may not be fiberglass to cannon from the Victory had been up for auction a few years ago,
they were made of wood........
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Offline 1Southpaw

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2011, 01:39:42 PM »
When we boarded the ship in 1973 , A sign said ,"no naked lights"   
puzzeled I ask what a naked light was ......
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Offline Winger Ed.

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2011, 03:32:50 PM »
Quote
 A sign said ,"no naked lights"  puzzeled I ask what a naked light was ...
I always understood it to be like our 'no smoking' or 'no open flames' type signs.

These are the same folks that call a common bolt,,,, a 'cap screw'.
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2011, 04:49:45 PM »
These are the same folks that call a common bolt,,,, a 'cap screw'.

At least that term is used occasionally here.  "Naked lights" would take some thinking before one understood.

"Two nations divided by a common language."  (Author unknown but attributed in various forms to several prominent persons.)

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Offline KABAR2

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2011, 10:44:09 AM »
Quote from: GGaskill on January 02, 2011, 04:49:45 PM
These are the same folks that call a common bolt,,,, a 'cap screw'.

At least that term is used occasionally here.  "Naked lights" would take some thinking before one understood.

"Two nations divided by a common language."  (Author unknown but attributed in various forms to several prominent persons.)




How true!  a fag = cigette  turn screw = screw driver  wind screen= wind shield  boot= trunk

so what is a Cell phone in the Queens English?  ::)

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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2011, 11:03:38 AM »
Quote from: KABAR2 on January 02, 2011, 05:21:02 AM
The replica cannon may not be fiberglass to cannon from the Victory had been up for auction a few years ago,
they were made of wood........

If that's the case then it makes a fire even more of a worry; I would assume that they had fire squads with equipment at the ready on the weather deck, and the 1st and 2nd gun decks.
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The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2011, 08:09:20 PM »
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The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline shooter2

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2011, 09:48:04 PM »
Well, I hope they keep her together until I get there for my tour and inspection!  ;D
 
I am due in Portsmouth on Monday 12 September.  Even though the Victory and Warrior have many replica guns I feel the whole atmosphere of a First Class ship of the line and the first British Ironclad will make up for any minor problems with armament.  I also expect that Fort Nelson, a bit up the hill from Portsmouth, will make up for it with a massive display of historic ordnance.  I have not forgotten that I should photo and measure Mallets Mortar either Mike and Tracy.  ;)
 
shooter2
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: HMS Victory firing broadside at night
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2011, 04:50:07 AM »
shooter2,

If they require you to wear a hardhat, 'be afraid'; and if they also make you listen to an emergency escape plan, 'be very afraid'. :D
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RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.
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