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TM7

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By the 1% for the 1%, de Tocqueville,,,Stiglitz
« on: August 16, 2011, 11:54:32 AM »
Joseph Stiglitz, Columbia Economist,,,,explains how he sees the 1% model is a dead end and what happened to the American economic system, which is perhaps now stalling permanently....and why spending is out of control, too. And why it is likely London, Cairo, etc. riots are coming our way...fyi...TM7
 
   http://www.vanityfair.com/society/features/2011/05/top-one-percent-201105#gotopage1   
 
 Of the 1%, by the 1%, for the 1%   
 
Americans have been watching protests against oppressive regimes that concentrate massive wealth in the hands of an elite few. Yet in our own democracy, 1 percent of the people take nearly a quarter of the nation’s income—an inequality even the wealthy will come to regret.  By Joseph E. Stiglitz Illustration by Stephen Doyle   
 
THE FAT AND THE FURIOUS The top 1 percent may have the best houses, educations, and lifestyles, says the author, but “their fate is bound up with how the other 99 percent live.”    It’s no use pretending that what has obviously happened has not in fact happened. The upper 1 percent of Americans are now taking in nearly a quarter of the nation’s income every year. In terms of wealth rather than income, the top 1 percent control 40 percent. Their lot in life has improved considerably. Twenty-five years ago, the corresponding figures were 12 percent and 33 percent. One response might be to celebrate the ingenuity and drive that brought good fortune to these people, and to contend that a rising tide lifts all boats. That response would be misguided. While the top 1 percent have seen their incomes rise 18 percent over the past decade, those in the middle have actually seen their incomes fall. For men with only high-school degrees, the decline has been precipitous—12 percent in the last quarter-century alone. All the growth in recent decades—and more—has gone to those at the top. In terms of income equality, America lags behind any country in the old, ossified Europe that President George W. Bush used to deride. Among our closest counterparts are Russia with its oligarchs and Iran. While many of the old centers of inequality in Latin America, such as Brazil, have been striving in recent years, rather successfully, to improve the plight of the poor and reduce gaps in income, America has allowed inequality to grow.

 
Economists long ago tried to justify the vast inequalities that seemed so troubling in the mid-19th century—inequalities that are but a pale shadow of what we are seeing in America today. The justification they came up with was called “marginal-productivity theory.” In a nutshell, this theory associated higher incomes with higher productivity and a greater contribution to society. It is a theory that has always been cherished by the rich. Evidence for its validity, however, remains thin. The corporate executives who helped bring on the recession of the past three years—whose contribution to our society, and to their own companies, has been massively negative—went on to receive large bonuses. In some cases, companies were so embarrassed about calling such rewards “performance bonuses” that they felt compelled to change the name to “retention bonuses” (even if the only thing being retained was bad performance). Those who have contributed great positive innovations to our society, from the pioneers of genetic understanding to the pioneers of the Information Age, have received a pittance compared with those responsible for the financial innovations that brought our global economy to the brink of ruin.
 
 

Some people look at income inequality and shrug their shoulders. So what if this person gains and that person loses? What matters, they argue, is not how the pie is divided but the size of the pie. That argument is fundamentally wrong. An economy in which most citizens are doing worse year after year—an economy like America’s—is not likely to do well over the long haul. There are several reasons for this.
 

First, growing inequality is the flip side of something else: shrinking opportunity. Whenever we diminish equality of opportunity, it means that we are not using some of our most valuable assets—our people—in the most productive way possible.
 
 Second, many of the distortions that lead to inequality—such as those associated with monopoly power and preferential tax treatment for special interests—undermine the efficiency of the economy. This new inequality goes on to create new distortions, undermining efficiency even further. To give just one example, far too many of our most talented young people, seeing the astronomical rewards, have gone into finance rather than into fields that would lead to a more productive and healthy economy.
 

Third, and perhaps most important, a modern economy requires “collective action”—it needs government to invest in infrastructure, education, and technology. The United States and the world have benefited greatly from government-sponsored research that led to the Internet, to advances in public health, and so on. But America has long suffered from an under-investment in infrastructure (look at the condition of our highways and bridges, our railroads and airports), in basic research, and in education at all levels. Further cutbacks in these areas lie ahead.
 

None of this should come as a surprise—it is simply what happens when a society’s wealth distribution becomes lopsided. The more divided a society becomes in terms of wealth, the more reluctant the wealthy become to spend money on common needs. The rich don’t need to rely on government for parks or education or medical care or personal security—they can buy all these things for themselves. In the process, they become more distant from ordinary people, losing whatever empathy they may once have had. They also worry about strong government—one that could use its powers to adjust the balance, take some of their wealth, and invest it for the common good. The top 1 percent may complain about the kind of government we have in America, but in truth they like it just fine: too gridlocked to re-distribute, too divided to do anything but lower taxes.
 

Economists are not sure how to fully explain the growing inequality in America. The ordinary dynamics of supply and demand have certainly played a role: laborsaving technologies have reduced the demand for many “good” middle-class, blue-collar jobs. Globalization has created a worldwide marketplace, pitting expensive unskilled workers in America against cheap unskilled workers overseas. Social changes have also played a role—for instance, the decline of unions, which once represented a third of American workers and now represent about 12 percent.

But one big part of the reason we have so much inequality is that the top 1 percent want it that way. The most obvious example involves tax policy. Lowering tax rates on capital gains, which is how the rich receive a large portion of their income, has given the wealthiest Americans close to a free ride. Monopolies and near monopolies have always been a source of economic power—from John D. Rockefeller at the beginning of the last century to Bill Gates at the end. Lax enforcement of anti-trust laws, especially during Republican administrations, has been a godsend to the top 1 percent. Much of today’s inequality is due to manipulation of the financial system, enabled by changes in the rules that have been bought and paid for by the financial industry itself—one of its best investments ever. The government lent money to financial institutions at close to 0 percent interest and provided generous bailouts on favorable terms when all else failed. Regulators turned a blind eye to a lack of transparency and to conflicts of interest.
When you look at the sheer volume of wealth controlled by the top 1 percent in this country, it’s tempting to see our growing inequality as a quintessentially American achievement—we started way behind the pack, but now we’re doing inequality on a world-class level.
 
And it looks as if we’ll be building on this achievement for years to come, because what made it possible is self-reinforcing. Wealth begets power, which begets more wealth. During the savings-and-loan scandal of the 1980s—a scandal whose dimensions, by today’s standards, seem almost quaint—the banker Charles Keating was asked by a congressional committee whether the $1.5 million he had spread among a few key elected officials could actually buy influence. “I certainly hope so,” he replied. The Supreme Court, in its recent Citizens United case, has enshrined the right of corporations to buy government, by removing limitations on campaign spending. The personal and the political are today in perfect alignment. Virtually all U.S. senators, and most of the representatives in the House, are members of the top 1 percent when they arrive, are kept in office by money from the top 1 percent, and know that if they serve the top 1 percent well they will be rewarded by the top 1 percent when they leave office. By and large, the key executive-branch policymakers on trade and economic policy also come from the top 1 percent. ***When pharmaceutical companies receive a trillion-dollar gift—through legislation prohibiting the government, the largest buyer of drugs, from bargaining over price—it should not come as cause for wonder. It should not make jaws drop that a tax bill cannot emerge from Congress unless big tax cuts are put in place for the wealthy.
 
Given the power of the top 1 percent, this is the way you would expect the system to work.
America’s inequality distorts our society in every conceivable way. There is, for one thing, a well-documented lifestyle effect—people outside the top 1 percent increasingly live beyond their means. Trickle-down economics may be a chimera, but trickle-down behaviorism is very real. Inequality massively distorts our foreign policy.
 
The top 1 percent rarely serve in the military—the reality is that the “all-volunteer” army does not pay enough to attract their sons and daughters, and patriotism goes only so far. Plus, the wealthiest class feels no pinch from higher taxes when the nation goes to war: borrowed money will pay for all that. Foreign policy, by definition, is about the balancing of national interests and national resources. With the top 1 percent in charge, and paying no price, the notion of balance and restraint goes out the window. There is no limit to the adventures we can undertake; corporations and contractors stand only to gain. The rules of economic globalization are likewise designed to benefit the rich: they encourage competition among countries for business, which drives down taxes on corporations, weakens health and environmental protections, and undermines what used to be viewed as the “core” labor rights, which include the right to collective bargaining. Imagine what the world might look like if the rules were designed instead to encourage competition among countries for workers. Governments would compete in providing economic security, low taxes on ordinary wage earners, good education, and a clean environment—things workers care about. But the top 1 percent don’t need to care.
Or, more accurately, they think they don’t.
 
Of all the costs imposed on our society by the top 1 percent, perhaps the greatest is this: the erosion of our sense of identity, in which fair play, equality of opportunity, and a sense of community are so important. America has long prided itself on being a fair society, where everyone has an equal chance of getting ahead, but the statistics suggest otherwise: the chances of a poor citizen, or even a middle-class citizen, making it to the top in America are smaller than in many countries of Europe. The cards are stacked against them. It is this sense of an unjust system without opportunity that has given rise to the conflagrations in the Middle East: rising food prices and growing and persistent youth unemployment simply served as kindling. With youth unemployment in America at around 20 percent (and in some locations, and among some socio-demographic groups, at twice that); with one out of six Americans desiring a full-time job not able to get one; with one out of seven Americans on food stamps (and about the same number suffering from “food insecurity”)—given all this, there is ample evidence that something has blocked the vaunted “trickling down” from the top 1 percent to everyone else. All of this is having the predictable effect of creating alienation—voter turnout among those in their 20s in the last election stood at 21 percent, comparable to the unemployment rate.
 

In recent weeks we have watched people taking to the streets by the millions to protest political, economic, and social conditions in the oppressive societies they inhabit. Governments have been toppled in Egypt and Tunisia. Protests have erupted in Libya, Yemen, and Bahrain. The ruling families elsewhere in the region look on nervously from their air-conditioned penthouses—will they be next? They are right to worry. These are societies where a minuscule fraction of the population—less than 1 percent—controls the lion’s share of the wealth; where wealth is a main determinant of power; where entrenched corruption of one sort or another is a way of life; and where the wealthiest often stand actively in the way of policies that would improve life for people in general.
As we gaze out at the popular fervor in the streets, one question to ask ourselves is this: When will it come to America? In important ways, our own country has become like one of these distant, troubled places.
 

Alexis de Tocqueville once described what he saw as a chief part of the peculiar genius of American society—something he called “self-interest properly understood.” The last two words were the key. Everyone possesses self-interest in a narrow sense: I want what’s good for me right now! Self-interest “properly understood” is different. It means appreciating that paying attention to everyone else’s self-interest—in other words, the common welfare—is in fact a precondition for one’s own ultimate well-being. Tocqueville was not suggesting that there was anything noble or idealistic about this outlook—in fact, he was suggesting the opposite. It was a mark of American pragmatism. Those canny Americans understood a basic fact: looking out for the other guy isn’t just good for the soul—it’s good for business.
 

The top 1 percent have the best houses, the best educations, the best doctors, and the best lifestyles, but there is one thing that money doesn’t seem to have bought: an understanding that their fate is bound up with how the other 99 percent live. Throughout history, this is something that the top 1 percent eventually do learn. Too late.     Americans have been watching protests against oppressive regimes that concentrate massive wealth in the hands of an elite few. Yet in our own democracy, 1 percent of the people take nearly a quarter of the nation’s income—an inequality even the wealthy will come to regret.  By Joseph E. Stiglitz Illustration by Stephen Doyle   THE FAT AND THE FURIOUS The top 1 percent may have the best houses, educations, and lifestyles, says the author, but “their fate is bound up with how the other 99 percent live.”    I t’s no use pretending that what has obviously happened has not in fact happened. The upper 1 percent of Americans are now taking in nearly a quarter of the nation’s income every year. In terms of wealth rather than income, the top 1 percent control 40 percent. Their lot in life has improved considerably. Twenty-five years ago, the corresponding figures were 12 percent and 33 percent. One response might be to celebrate the ingenuity and drive that brought good fortune to these people, and to contend that a rising tide lifts all boats. That response would be misguided. While the top 1 percent have seen their incomes rise 18 percent over the past decade, those in the middle have actually seen their incomes fall. For men with only high-school degrees, the decline has been precipitous—12 percent in the last quarter-century alone. All the growth in recent decades—and more—has gone to those at the top. In terms of income equality, America lags behind any country in the old, ossified Europe that President George W. Bush used to deride. Among our closest counterparts are Russia with its oligarchs and Iran. While many of the old centers of inequality in Latin America, such as Brazil, have been striving in recent years, rather successfully, to improve the plight of the poor and reduce gaps in income, America has allowed inequality to grow.
 

Economists long ago tried to justify the vast inequalities that seemed so troubling in the mid-19th century—inequalities that are but a pale shadow of what we are seeing in America today. The justification they came up with was called “marginal-productivity theory.” In a nutshell, this theory associated higher incomes with higher productivity and a greater contribution to society (i.e. Shruggism..TM7). It is a theory that has always been cherished by the rich. Evidence for its validity, however, remains thin. ***The corporate executives who helped bring on the recession of the past three years—whose contribution to our society, and to their own companies, has been massively negative—went on to receive large bonuses. In some cases, companies were so embarrassed about calling such rewards “performance bonuses” that they felt compelled to change the name to “retention bonuses” (even if the only thing being retained was bad performance). Those who have contributed great positive innovations to our society, from the pioneers of genetic understanding to the pioneers of the Information Age, have received a pittance compared with those responsible for the financial innovations that brought our global economy to the brink of ruin.
 
 
...TM7

Offline Gary G

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Re: By the 1% for the 1%, de Tocqueville,,,Stiglitz
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2011, 12:39:31 PM »
Stiglitz is a Keynesian. Nuff said!
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

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“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline SwampThing762

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Re: By the 1% for the 1%, de Tocqueville,,,Stiglitz
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2011, 12:57:35 PM »
I recognized it for propaganda when I saw Columbia University.

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Offline Gary G

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Re: By the 1% for the 1%, de Tocqueville,,,Stiglitz
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2011, 03:18:55 PM »
Stiglitz wrote, "economist are not sure how to explain the growing inequality". I would agree here if he was speaking of himself and other Keynesians. However Mises, Rothbard and some other free market economists explained it very well. Government has much do do with it and there are several reasons. I will give you one, an obvious cause:

The federal reserve prints money because of the increasing size of government and and excessive spending. When the supply of something is increased, each unit becomes worth less. This economic principal applies with dollars also. FOr over 3000 years gold has held a relatively constant value in terms of goods purchased. The dollar was worth 1/35th of an ounce of gold in 1970. Now it is worth 1/1780th of an ounce of gold. I tell you this because it illustrates how much they have devalued the dollar in the last forty years. Poor people spend a higher proportion of their dollars than do rich people who invest most of their wealth. Thus wealth has been taken away from the poor and middle class in what is referred to as the "hidden tax". As government prints, poor folk's money buys less while the government spends  before it devalues. The average mans purchasing power is taken from him and blown by government on boondoggles. Then government blames those evil oil companies for the rising prices and ignorant people believe them. Meanwhile, rich folks have their money invested out of the country or in something that pays a return higher than the rate of inflation. The result is that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. That is one reason that Ron Paul wants to end the Fed.

Of course Stiglitz is one who would have the government spend more because he is a Keynesian.

Government has grown in size tremendously since de Toqueville. Government is totally paid for from by private sector. This is capital that could be used in the private sector to expand production which would create jobs for the poor and everyone else and yet it is no longer available, having been confiscated by the government.

The Keynesians see a bridge built and say what a good thing for America. They never see the other side where those things that people want and need don't get built because it went to the bridge that was probably grossly overpriced.
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: By the 1% for the 1%, de Tocqueville,,,Stiglitz
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2011, 04:18:41 PM »
Every thing Stiglitz wrote was pure Class envy.  I wonder if his salary of 150K + a year as a Columbia Professor he realizes he is one of the ones that the unwashed masses of the Red Revolution would pose against a wall or in front of a ditch to catch bullets.  I never understood the people in the Ivory tower wanting social change that woould see them imprisoned or killed (look at the Soviet revolution of 1917, look at the Chineese Revolutions 1940's and the 1970's, Cuba in the 50's and Viet Nam in the 60, Cambodia in the 70's where Millions were shot for social change.
Everything I learned in all of my Economics and Political Science classes in school (I have a degree in both- realized for an extra two classes I could have a BS in Econ rahter than a minor)  We need the top 1%.  Most of the 1% are coperations (legal people under the law) that create those incomes and distribute it to share holders (your 401K, pension paln, IRA and/ or Mutual fund) as well as employ people that make up the economy from entry level jobs to the rich.  If you are jealous of the Bill Gates, the Warren Buffetts, the President of this or that company that makes Millions a year through their hard work and innovative ideas, well too bad.  It is their money and if we confiscate the tops 1%'s wealth how many years till you are the top 1%?  With the top 25% paying about 75% of the total taxes what do you want to do?  In a free society, free market and capitalist economy there will always be a top, middle and bottom.  I know people in the top, I think I am in the middle and I have been in the bottom a couple times.   I made my own luck and got out of the bottom.  While we are all created equal and are supose to be equal under the law, we do not have the same opperunities, but I believe in the Peter principal.  You will show your abilities and be rewarded to a level you can handle, You may think you shold be running the world, but others do not, and if you think you can do it better, that is the great thing about our sytem, you show you have a business plan, that you have a better mouse trap, and you can get a loan to start that company.  The capital that the 1% have and use to gamble with in the stock market, stick in the banks, put with investment bankers (although a monkey with a dart board can get a better return) we have ways to get the new ideas to market, researched, or sold to people that can produce them and see a profit in doing so.  If you are jelous that this guy can buy a sports car or a fleet of them, then you are a petty person and no matter what they make, produce you think you know better what they should do with their money.  Do I hear you yelling aboout Al Gore and his Billions?  Some was left to him by his racist father, the rest he scamed in carbon credits.  Should we take everything from Al except his Senate and VP pensions?  Just leave him his VP pension?  And the big question is what would you do with the money?  Support the poor?  They will demand more and at the same time people in the lower middle class would look and say "you know if I got fired I would be better off being on the dole and having the Nanny state take care of me and do hidden side jobs to make more $.   

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: By the 1% for the 1%, de Tocqueville,,,Stiglitz
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2011, 08:40:49 PM »
Every thing Stiglitz wrote was pure Class envy.  I wonder if his salary of 150K + a year as a Columbia Professor he realizes he is one of the ones that the unwashed masses of the Red Revolution would pose against a wall or in front of a ditch to catch bullets.  I never understood the people in the Ivory tower wanting social change that woould see them imprisoned or killed (look at the Soviet revolution of 1917, look at the Chineese Revolutions 1940's and the 1970's, Cuba in the 50's and Viet Nam in the 60, Cambodia in the 70's where Millions were shot for social change.



I have wondered this very thing. I am sure they fancy themselves as indespensable,  leaders of the revolution and friends of the down trodden. The ruthless are the ones who survive not the thoughtful.
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: By the 1% for the 1%, de Tocqueville,,,Stiglitz
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2011, 06:17:46 AM »
The PUPLIC sector Unions in Wisconson is a bad example of the haves and have nots.  The problem with the unions is they are no longer representing the interests of the workers but they are out for the Union.  Also you have the corruption going on with in the Union- government relationship where the unions were, lack of a better word stealing tax dollars in scams in return for compaign contributions for allowing money to be stolen.
I don't understand why someone can not have something, even if it is in excess.  If the top 1% are all billionaires and the next % are all people with 500,000,000.  If we steal al the money from the top 1%  the next group is now the top 1% and the class war fare will never end.  The other problem is we need people able to be able to buy the items we steal from the top 1%.  And clearly is the top 1% is 35 Million people that is 35 Billion dollars.  If we steal all their assests the next 35 Million people do not have 35 Billion to buy those assests.  What was 35 million is now worth 17.5 billion.  And what the Government thatught was a huge boon ends up being worth 1/2 of what they thought or less.   
No matter what there are always going to be rich.  the guy that has a $1 more than you is rich, people all have different wants and needs and priorities.  The Nazi's were really good at using scape goats for the problems their economy faced.  The weak minded all jump on the ban wagon as to why there is a problem.  They demogog the issue and generate a hatred to justify theft and murder.  Anyone that got in their way was eliminated.  We see that with the press today.  They promote the idea and not the truth.  They tell people what to think rather than what the facts are and let them reach their own conclusions.
What I do not understand is the relationship between the Unions and the Democrats.  The Democrats and the extreme idology that does not allow for growth goes against the idea of the unions.  You would think the Unions would want growth, expansion, building, manufacturing, shipping.  But they gove money to the Dems who restrict manufacturing, limit building, stop mining and drilling, stop power production.  All Union jobs.
I am trying to come up with an annology to our economy and am having a problem.  An ocean liner is the best I can do.  We have the government running the titanic.  They are not doing the maintenacne (infrastructure), they are not providing enough fuel to get across the ocean (our fuel costs) and telling us we need ot conserve our way across the ocean and we all may need to row or use our shirts as sails (not viable options to move the boat across the ocean), they have holes in the hull (theft and corruption)  They over sold the passage and there is not enough food on board (our federal spending) due to a huge crew that are fed as well as if not better than the 1st class passangers that paid for the bulk of the trip.   When they are not reaching the other shore the crew blames the fist class passangers for not paying enough for their tickets and the wine needed to serve them.  They then demand the fist class passangers to pony up more money to buy fuel and food from passing ships (deficit spending) and then yelling that they did not do enough to get the boat across the ocean.  The management of the ship has nothing to do with who purchased the tickets or how they came up with that money to buy the 1st class ticket, once the tickets are purchased you can not go back to the 1st class passangers and say they need to pay more because 51% of the steerage passangers want steak instead of hamberger and do not want ot pay for their bar bills.
By what you are saying you sound like you want the Government to issue a color coded SS card needed to buy anything.  The color of the card is based on how where you are in the % and a Blue card pays more for the same item because they can pay more for it and people with the Red cards, the bottom 1% get it for free.  How long till the bottom 1% is driving a million dollar sports car that gets 5 gallons to the mile because it is all free?  Our economy works because of the first law of economics. Willing and able to pay.  Am I willing to buy a 50,000  4X4 truck.  Yes, am I able to, No.  Do I envey those that can, a little.  Do I think we should steal fro mthose driving them to make it cheaper for me, NO!  Do I need to think of ways to save up for the truck, work harder, find a new job or position to make it possible?  Yes. 
When I was growing up I had some very wealthy freinds.  One day it slipped as to how much some of the father made.  I did some fast math and not only did these men make a dozen times what my father made they paid 3 times what my father made in TAXES.  Not that  they were four parents all making more than a million a year but they were paying 100,000 of thousands in Taxes just because.  The same government that was supose to provide a fair playing field for them were creating rules and regulations to take more of their hard earned money and make is so they can not make as much, restricting how much they can pay in taxes.  It started to sound like a Abbot and Costello rutine. 
A-You want them to pay more but you make it so they make less.  How is that going to work?
C-  But we are getting 33% of a million,  instead of 29%. of 1.25 million. 
A- But how is that more? 
C- 33 is 4% more than 29.  Simple math.  And i feel better because they are not making as much.
A- but how does that help you?
C- What
A- them not making more, how does that help you?
C- It doesn't help me it just makes me feel better that he is not making that much more than me.
A- But doesn't he pay you to do your job at his house?
C- Yep and now I don't work their anymore becuse he does not have money in his budget anymore for me.
 

Offline BAGTIC

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Re: By the 1% for the 1%, de Tocqueville,,,Stiglitz
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2011, 08:58:24 AM »
Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote that of the seven deadly sins envy was the greatest.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: By the 1% for the 1%, de Tocqueville,,,Stiglitz
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2011, 02:28:18 PM »
Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote that of the seven deadly sins envy was the greatest.
I can see how envy leads to bad things.  Maybe a little jelous would be a better word.  I want one but do not hate the ones that have one, I see that working harder and saving (need to stop going to the gun shop).  But unlike most liberals I do not want to ban the trucks because I can not have one, I do not want to tax the truck out of existance.  By the way did you know a Suburban has over 8,000 in taxes in the sticker price.  Maybe if that truck was 42 in stead of 50 I could afford one.  But back to the  liberal small minded thought process.  If they don't like it they want to tax it out of reach of others, they want to make it illegal, they want to get rid of it.  I can see how envy is the worst sin. 

Offline dukkillr

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Re: By the 1% for the 1%, de Tocqueville,,,Stiglitz
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2011, 05:37:01 AM »
Strangely, I think you've hit on a distinction in this debate that people are having a hard time with.  When you make arguments that the wealthy deserve to pay more taxes you have a hard time finding traction.  All the talk of social contracts and privilege never takes hold, for good reason.  The wealthy already fund the government, pay at a higher rate, and provide the majority of jobs and consumer spending.  Plus there is the American ideal.  The idea that we all play in a giant sandbox and life is what you make of it.  Punishing those who do better seems downright un-American to me.
 
But there is a second, less fair, reality.  That is the honest truth that wealth is becoming increasingly consolidated as the gap between the wealthy and the lower and middle classes widens.  The idea that tax policy is not influencing this reality is either insane or partisan talking points.  My concern is that the growing gap is making the country increasingly less stable.  As those happy with their share of the pie gets smaller, particularly in this economy, the risk that they organise their votes and displeasure grows.  Simply put, if 75% of the population wants a 90% tax on any income over 100k, and they get motivated to do it, they have the votes, protest bodies, and disruptive power to get the job done.  That they can do it doesn't make it fair, but it does make it reality.  And this issue about both fairness and reality, even if they are different things.
 
I genuinely do not have an answer to the situation, but I also don't see any reason to lie about it.  Essentially the question is, "What price are you willing to pay in taxes, for social and financial stability?"
 

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: By the 1% for the 1%, de Tocqueville,,,Stiglitz
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2011, 06:08:18 AM »
TM7,
No matter what happens, there are always going to be elites.  Even is a society where everyone is equal there will be elites and priveligded.  Be it in being smart, be it in skills, artistic, or other area there are always going to be some one at the top.
Again when I was in High shcool and I learned that friends parents made Millions a year I did not ask what they were doing with it, I did not say you should do X with it.  I asked what they did to make it.  What career paths did they take and how did they rise to the top.
Hard work and long hours were always the answers.  You need to know everything about your field!  Set obtainable goals and go after those goals.  The drive was not all about the money it was about being the best in their field at the cost of alot of other things.  The money was a bonus.  It is an ego thing, they simply wanted to be the best.  You know the dedicated athelete that gets up at 5am so they can shoot baskets at the gym long before school starts and practice and practices outside of team practice, that learns the mechanics of the sport and are shocked that everyone is not that into the sport as they are?  These are the same guys in the business world.  Be it natural ability to understand their field or extreme hard work, because it does take hard work to, just how hard is the question.  And like all sports the great ones make it look easy.  I am good at what I do, I am not great, I don't want to put in the time to be great.  I end up here arguing with silly semi comunists like you rather than researching my compitition and reading about what new rule or regulation this agency or that has come out with to screw with the economy and take money out of it in the form of fees and fines.  You are one of the guys that think every game should end in a tie so no ones feelings are hurt, that we are all winners.   You can not win so, you don't want any to win.   
I can see that the top 1% covet, they covet being the best,  they may want to keep up with their peers and their toys just cost more.   The money and fame are side effects.  As the top 1% of there is nothing they can not buy.  It may take a little while, they may have to settle on something else as not everything is for sale.
But the bottom line is it does not matter what you think they should do with their money, It is their money and they get to determine what they are going to do with it.  If they can make more by buying tax free governmet bonds and make 2% TAX Free they will.  Once tthe opertunity costs are greater than what they are doing now they will do that.  All higher taxes are going to do it stop others from climbing the ladder.  You ever hear the term a rising tide raises all boats?   Clearly when you ran your business you gave everyone the same raise every year.  Jimmy that busted his butt for you and did extra go tthe same as Bill that did as little as possible?  And if the price index was 3% you gladly gave up parts of your profits and gave everyone 6% right?  How did that meeting go, "Jimmy I understand you busted you butt this year and any profit we saw this year was all due to your efforts, but the constitutiuon says I need to treat you all equal so, you are getting the same as Bill that cost us not only his salary, the pay roll taxes, health care, was never in the office on time and left early but sold for under costs and we were never paid for the items he sold, you are making the same as him this year."? 
Are you that petty that your business did OK but since you were not one of the top 1% you want to skew the playing field so you actually end up being in the top?  You were a solid C student and want the governemnt to grade on a curve and give you an A when others actually earned it?

Offline blind ear

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Re: By the 1% for the 1%, de Tocqueville,,,Stiglitz
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2011, 07:53:46 PM »
Same cycle ecconomically again and again and again. It's older than money. Depression, war, recovery, growth, inflation, recession, inflation, crash, depression, war. Breaking the control of the wealthy top tier is the crash.
 
Until the values are readjusted to worth, the wealthy of the current cycle will stagnate any future growth.
 Young people will not be able to work, save, invest and create a productive growing future.
 
Readjusting value to worth will take away the false equity and inflated value that the banking and investment groups are calling thier wealth. It is takeing an ever larger share, all of it actually, of the tax structure to keep those houses of cards standing. Paid for by the tax payers, not by the debt holders.
 
The payback of debt, or the failure to pay back, will eventually crash the current false value debt/equity holdings that the lack of control and governance of the banking system has created. Property will be valued at worth once again and young people can create new futuures.
 
Like I said, this isn't something that I made up, just find a junior high ecconomics book and you can find the whole story. Happened before and it is happening again.
 
Just ignernt ole ear.
Oath Keepers: start local
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“It is no coincidence that the century of total war coincided with the century of central banking.” – Ron Paul, End the Fed
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An economic crash like the one of the 1920s is the only thing that will get the US off of the road to Socialism that we are on and give our children a chance at a future with freedom and possibility of economic success.
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everyone hears but very few see. (I can't see either, I'm not on the corporate board making rules that sound exactly the opposite of what they mean, plus loopholes) ear
"I have seen the enemy and I think it's us." POGO
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