44 vs 444 vs 45-70

[Dixie Dude]

A 444 might be more powerful energy wise than a .308 out to a certain range, but a .308 is flater shooting than a .444.  A .444 by it's bullet weight alone will arch more and drop faster.  A .308 spire point will arch less and take longer to drop, thus flatter shooting.  Accuracy depends on the gun, the bullet, the shooter, and the range. 

[Swampman]

We are only talking out to 300 yards.

[243dave]

Even at 300yds there is a big difference, of course its not a fair comparison though.  Now if you would have said the 444 and the 30-30 had the same trajectory, I would have been fine but a 444 and a 308, yeah right!!    Pull out any trajectory table from any reloading book and compare the two rounds.  A 308 with a 150gr bullet travels at 2900fps, a 444 with a 250gr bullet will break 2200fps.  A .308 150gr nosler partition has a B.C. of .387.  The .444 250gr partition has a B.C. of .200 (these are two typical hunting rounds).  Now plug those numbers into some software or the chart in back of your loading manuel, I'll tell you what the Nosler manuel says with a 100yd zero at a 300 yard distance, it says the 308 drops 12.8 inches and the 444 drops 32.4 inches.  Now I admit I'm no math whiz but a difference of 19.6 inches doesn't seem the same, matter of fact it seems to me its a big difference but like I said I'm no math whiz.
Dave   

[gcrank1]

Well, yes.....and no......
The drop figures dont really tell all the story because, if I understand Swamp correctly, you dont neccesarily -0- for the same distances. You really have to look at the 'mid-range trajectory' tables and you can likely pick some -0- distances per cartridge that, over that 300yds. are not too far apart in mid-range, in spite of the BC of the typical bullets and the launch speed.

[243dave]

Here is what Swampman said on page 3 post #72
  "When we consider that a properly loaded .444 has the same trajectory as a .308 Winchester out to 300 yards then the brush gun idea becomes a moot point."   
  Numbers can be adjusted to fit and favor anything.  If the 444 is zeroed at 200yds with the same info I posted above it still has a drop of 19.2 inches.  I posted achievable velocities(with a maximum load) in SAAMI standards with production barrels with common hunting rounds and the common 100 yard zero.  You can adjust zero, use bullets with higher and lower B.C.'s all you want but there is no comparison in trajectory, and trying to compare the trajectory of the 308 and 444 is silly, they are not close.  This is not a slam against the 444, it is a powerful round that many under estimate but the 308 against the 444 is a apples to oranges thing.
Dave     

[gcrank1]

I know that when I started looking into, and hopefully understanding, the mid-range tables (many years ago, now) that some of the mysteries started to make more sense. The idea that numbers can (and are) adjusted to fit and favor anything is true, but if one assumes that the charts in loading manuals; ie, the mid-range' tables, are intended to misrepresent something I dont believe so, any more than the 'drop figure' tables are. They are measurements of different attributes of exterior ballistics, a pretty defined science.
Now, this has strayed quite far from the original question, and I pose this only to further an understanding among our members of concepts some may be unaware of. I am not arguing for, or against Swamp's premiss, just sayin', check the mid-range tables if you happen to find this stuff interesting, there is more to this than just drop figures.
FWIW, a long sheet of butcher paper and plotted lines can be better for some than trying to visualize the mid-range concepts from figures in a chart.

[Cabin4]

We are only talking out to 300 yards.

For the 308 and the 444, what bullet weight, what BC and what velocity for each are you talking about?

[243dave]

gcrank1, I have understood mid-range trajectory and max point blank range just fine for some years also.  Adjusting your mid-range trajectory to maximize a calibers useful range is only smart to get the most out of gun.  Zeroing your 444 three inches high at 100yds will give you the ability to hold dead on a deer at 200yds and squeeze the trigger without the need for any hold over.  What I'm talking about is just plain ole trajectory.  The fact is there is a large difference between the 308 and 444 and thought I'd use some simple and easily obtainable figures to illustrate my point.  If I try hard enough I can muster up some numbers proving that I still have a 32 inch waist but I am pretty sure thats pretty far from the truth.
Dave
ps, here is a simple article/chart on mid-range trajectory and max point blank range.  http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_trajectory_table.htm

[Graybeard]

Guys this is the BIG bore forum. It is for discussion of .375 and larger guns. The .308 doesn't fit here. Get back on topic.