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Offline DaveSB

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Info request
« on: August 17, 2011, 06:39:03 AM »
I received an email today by the 'Sons of Union Veterans' requesting any info we may be able to provide on the 30pdr. Parrott they are restoring for Constantine, MI. I'm not exactly sure how to go about this, so I thought some of you could guide me in the right direction. Thanks!!
 
Trunion 1:
"1862"

Trunion 2:
line 1 "RPP"
line 2 "WPF"

Top: "US"

Muzzle:
Top "No. 93"
Bottom "30pdr."
Bottom line 2 "4.2"


Offline DaveSB

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Re: Info request
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2011, 06:39:52 AM »
more

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Info request
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2011, 09:06:42 AM »
Dave,

WPF - Gun was manufactured by West Point Foundry
93 - U.S. Army registry number
US - Designates this barrel as an Army parrott rifle
RPP - Barrel was inspected by the gun's designer, Robert Parker Parrott
234 - Foundry number
1862 - Year barrel was made
4.2 - Bore diameter
30pdr - Weight of projectile
4,250 - Weight of barrel
Rifling - 5RH grooves

Now, if they're looking for the history/provenance of this piece during and post Civil War, all the way up to its arrival in Constantine; that might be a difficult nut to crack.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline DaveSB

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Re: Info request
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2011, 09:29:58 AM »
Wonderful, thank you so much. I gave them a link to GBO, apparently it was easier for them to just ask me instead. That's ok, I appreciate the help Cannoneer. Some of that is common sence to me, but I was unsure what the rest meant.

Offline DaveSB

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Re: Info request
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2011, 10:44:30 AM »
Bruce Gosling, from Sons of Union Veterans, had one last question reguarding the usage of the gun. Of course, I have no idea where to begin looking for such military records of numbered guns. Any suggestions?
 
Attached is a current pic from Bruce and says there will be a re-dedication ceremony. I'll post times and dates when I get them, if any local GBO members wanted to attend. Should be pretty neat.

Offline gunsonwheels

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Re: Info request
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2011, 12:24:15 PM »
I don't know but maybe the National Registry of Surviving Civil war Ordnance (Wayne Stark (deceased) Jim Bender is the current caretaker) might have some info... I really don't know what all they document.
 
I sent the following to him:
 
Jim,

Would you please take a look at the following link and see if you have any further information on this piece?

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,239319.new.html#new

Thanks for your help.  I have noticed in the past between the registry and a conscienceous caretaker, several people have been helped to piece together some history of their ordnance.  You are appreciated!

George
 
If he responds, I'll post any additional info he provides.
 
GOW

Offline DaveSB

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Re: Info request
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2011, 03:58:28 PM »
Thank you very much George!!

Offline gunsonwheels

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Re: Info request
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2011, 08:19:58 AM »
From Jim Bender:
 
 
 Hello George, Thanks for the email. I don’t have a lot on this cannon but will share what I do have. From DaveSB’s  posting, the markings must be readable. On the right rimbase, Foundry Number 234 should be readable. This cannon and 45 others from West Point Foundry were accepted by the Inspector on May 7, 1862. This tube was donated to the J.C. Joss, GAR No 121 on November 13, 1897 and sent for the New York Arsenal. This 4.2-in Parrott is marked in the early pattern, where the muzzle and trunnion faces are used as prescribe in the Ordnance Manual of 1840. By 1861 these requirements changed to placing all of the markings, excluding the foundry number, on the muzzle face. West Point Foundry was slow to adapt these new marking requirements and did not start marking as such until around Registry No. 132, in October 1862. As for service history, these are nearly impossible to determine. It has been stated these records were destroyed by the National Archives in the 1930’s. More recently though it has beenspeculated they may still exist in the volumes not yet cataloged. Either way, few are ever able to find actual service history for particular Registry Numbers. I hope this is of some use. Respectfully, Jim Bender
GOW

Offline DaveSB

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Re: Info request
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2011, 10:27:43 AM »
Thank you again George, this helps a lot. This reminds me of something Jim from SBR told me, "As you get more into it, you will realize people in this hobby are very willing to give help and information. They generally are very nice people." He couldn't be more correct.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Info request
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2011, 06:36:28 AM »
Dave,
There’s online access to our National Archives (in a limited way), and in some instances you can purchase ‘Record Groups’ in microfilm form. I’m posting a link that opens a page to one of the relevant record groups that the ‘Sons of Union Veterans’ would need to research in the hope of finding further information on the ‘Constantine Parrott’ rifle. It’s Record Group 156, and they would need to specifically access 156.3.1, Microfilm Publications: M1281. http://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/156.html

Jim Bender is correct in stating that duplicate ordnance reports were (unfortunately) destroyed, but they were actually destroyed by the Treasury Department in the late 1800’s; however, summary statements taken from these ‘Quarterly Returns’ survived, and this is the documentation contained in these microfilm publications. To save time explaining this in more detail, and also because it’s an interesting read in its own right, I’m copying and pasting this text from the National Archives site.

"SUMMARY STATEMENTS OF QUARTERLY RETURNS OF
ORDNANCE AND ORDNANCE STORES ON HAND IN
REGULAR AND VOLUNTEER ARMY ORGANIZATIONS
1862-1867, 1870-1876
The records reproduced in the microfilm publication
are from
Record of the Office of the
Chief of Ordnance
Record Group 156
and
Records of the Office of the
Inspector General
Record Group 159

The Ordnance "Department" was established as a bureau-level
office of the War Department by an act of Congress dated May 14,
1812 (2 Stat. 732). The senior ordnance officer headed the
Department, but had no formal title until an act of August 3, 1861
(12 Stat. 287), provided for a Chief of Ordnance. The Department
was abolished and its functions transferred to the U.S. Army
Materiel Command during a 1962 Department of the Army reorganization.
Throughout its existence, the Ordnance Department was
responsible for procuring and distributing ordnance and ordnance
stores to the Army, maintaining and repairing such equipment,
and developing and testing new types of ordnance. As defined
in an 1861 Army regulation, the term "ordnance and ordnance
stores" included "all cannon arid artillery carriages and equipments;
all apparatus and machines for the service and manoeuvres
of artillery; all small arms and accoutrements and horse equipments;
all ammunition; all tools and materials for the ordnance
service; horse medicines, materials for shoeing, and all horse
equipments whatever for the light artillery."
Army regulations dating from the early 19th century specified
that commanders of regiments and companies were to be held
accountable for all ordnance and ordnance stores issued to their
commands. To ensure accountability, Army regulations required
that persons responsible for ordnance and ordnance stores make
quarterly inventories and transmit the results on prescribed
Forms (Ordnance Form 1) to the Ordnance Department within 20 days
after the close of a calendar-year quarter. Upon submission,
these "quarterly returns" were examined in the Ordnance Department
and then transmitted to the Department of the Treasury. Ordnance
Office Circular 4 of January 20, 1863, required that officers
submitting quarterly returns also forward duplicate copies for
retention by the Ordnance Department. Eventually, however, the
duplicate returns were also transferred to the Treasury Department
where they and the original returns were destroyed by 1896.
The forms (returns) were designed in accordance with the
Ordnance Department's classification system as follows:
Part I: Artillery, small arms, ammunition, and other
ordnance stores.
Class I: Cannon.
Class II: Artillery carriages.
Class III: Artillery implements and equipments.
Class IV: Artillery projectiles unprepared for
service.
Class V: Artillery projectiles prepared for
service.
VI: Small arms.
Class VII: Accouterments, implements, and equipments
for small arms, and horse equipments
for cavalry.
Class VIII: Powder, ammunition for small arms,
and materials.
Class IX: Parts or incomplete sets of any
articles in classes I-VIII.
Class X: Miscellaneous.
Part II: Tools and Materials. (Many categories)
The summary statements were copied from the quarterly
returns submitted by ordnance officers into the volumes reproduced
in this microfilm publication. No information has been
found explaining why this compilation was made. The backstrips
of some volumes, however, identify them as belonging to a statistical
Division of the Ordnance Department. Probably the creation
of the records was dictated by the Ordnance Department's increased
need for more systematic, statistical information concerning
the distribution of ordnance materials. The Civil War
resulted in a great increase in both the amount of ordnance and
ordnance stores distributed and in the number of Volunteer and
Regular Army regiments which possessed such supplies. After the
Civil War, the decrease in the Army's size lessened the need for
such a compilation, and the records were maintained only sporadically
until discontinued in 1876.
Records Description
The summary statements are arranged in the first instance
by arm of service—artillery, cavalry, and infantry. For the
years 1862 through 1871, there are three subseries of volumes,
one for each arm of service, with the last (infantry) also
containing summary statements for "miscellaneous" units, a
general category for all other units issued ordnance and ordnance
stores. From 1872 through the 1876 termination date, a single
subseries contains statements for all arms of service and for
miscellaneous units. Within a service arm, the first level of
arrangement is by calendar quarters. The table of contents
shows the arrangement order to this point.
Within each quarter, statements for Regular Army organizations
generally precede those for Volunteer Army organizations, but
in a few cases, the order is reversed. The Regular Army statements
are arranged numerically by unit number designation. Statements
for State Volunteer organizations (State units mustered
into Federal service in times of emergency) are arranged for
the most part alphabetically by State and thereunder numerically
by unit number designation. Units not assigned numerical designations
follow the numbered organizations for each State. Statements
for U.S. Volunteer organizations (Veteran Reserve Corps
and U.S. Colored Troops) follow the returns for State units.
In the fourth subseries, statements within a volume are arranged
by arm of service and thereunder similarly to the other three
subseries.
Within each of the three types of Army organizations just
mentioned, the summary statements are arranged in accordance
with the Ordnance Department's classification system. For artillery
regiments, statements cover most of the ordnance classifications.
For cavalry and infantry regiments, information is
recorded for weapons and equipment in classes VI-VIII only.
Within each general class of ordnance, weapons or equipment are
further broken down by general type, and finally by specific
type; for example, Class VI, Small Arms— breechloading carbines-
Merrill's rifles, caliber .54.
Within a volume, information is formatted across two facing
pages, with the organizations listed at the left margin of the
left-hand page and the ordnance and ordnance stores reported
by them to the right. Information for each organizational unit
is as follows: the date its quarterly return was received by
the Ordnance Department; the unit's numerical designation, if
assigned; the unit's station; and, for the Civil War period,
the file number assigned to the return upon its receipt. The
file numbers do not correspond to those of any extant records
of the Ordnance Department. If the description of weapons
and equipment exceeds the space available on the first double
page, the rest of the enumeration is completed on succeeding
double pages. Because each line is numbered when enumerations
are continued, it is easy to match each unit with its ordnance
and ordnance stores. No further organizational units are listed
until the inventory for those entered on the first page is
complete.
Some of the volumes in the artillery and cavalry subseries
begin with tables of contents. The staff of the National Archives
and Records service has prepared typescript tables of contents
to all the remaining volumes and has filmed each of them preceding
the volume itself.
Related Records
Other than the summary statements reproduced on this microfilm
publication, there is no source of comprehensive information
concerning weapons and ordnance equipment possessed by military
units. References to such data, however, can occasionally be
found in other records, namely: letters sent or received by
the Chief of Ordnance, part of RG 156; regimental letterbooks
and other records of volunteer units, part of Records of the
Adjutant General's Office, 1780's-1917, RG 94; and Regular Army
unit records, Records of the U.S. Regular Army Mobile Units, 1821-
1942, RG 391. Inspection reports for military units, which
frequently contain information about weapons, are part of Records
of the Office of the Inspector General, RG 159. Also in RG 156 are
summary statements of ordnance and ordnance stores at ordnance
installations, depots, forts, and batteries, but these records contain
no references to military units.
Robert H. Gruber wrote these introductory remarks and prepared the records for filming. The editor was Kathleen S. Quigley.


Of course it’s now time for the Caveat Emptor; there’s no guarantee whatsoever, that there’s any information about the Constantine 4.2-inch parrott rifle contained in these files.

BTW: Thanks for posting the pic of the restored gun, the folks involved, did a fine job.

 
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline DaveSB

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Re: Info request
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2011, 09:00:30 AM »
I passed the info along, thank you again!

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Info request
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2011, 10:14:38 AM »
Dave,
Here's something else that Bruce Gosling might want to check out. Jim Bender provided a date for the U.S. Army gifting the gun to the 'Grand Army of the Republic' post in Constantine (11/13/1897). With this information it would now be a lot easier to search local public library records for any possible saved regional newspaper copies from this time period; if they exist, there would probably be an article about the cannon being donated to the local GAR post, and many times these articles provide information about CW artillery that can't be found elsewhere.

The GAR post number was actually 124.
Post No.        Name                       P.O. Address             County                  Years active
124               Joss, John C.            Constantine              ST. Joseph            1883 - 1907

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline DaveSB

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Re: Info request
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2011, 04:05:28 AM »
wonderful, I'll pass that along as well.