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Offline Zulu

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How does firing cannon effect sailing ships?
« on: August 26, 2011, 06:37:28 AM »
This is a short read on the effects of cannon fire on the progress of sailing ships.  I found it interesting.
Zulu
 
 Francis Liardet: Professional Recollections on Points of Seamanship, Discipline, &c., 1849. Page 101:
 Firing bow guns when in chase. It appears to me that the fear so often entertained of retarding the ship by firing bow guns in chase is much overrated, and that the hope of accelerating the ship's speed by firing stern-chasers is equally, if not more doubtful. But in both cases when the ship is large, and the breeze commanding, I cannot understand how a single gun fired at intervals can possibly retard or accelerate a ship's speed. Yet we have often seen the first of these points much canvassed when in chase, and sometimes when the ship was going nearly her full speed; but it was generally decided that the bow guns would most surely retard the ship. As these points appear to admit of a doubt, it would be a desirable thing to prove it in a practical point of view, by trying it with two vessels of equal force and as nearly equal speed as possible; and when right abeam of each other, let one fire her bow guns, and try its effect compared with the other, and then try the effect of the stern guns. As the same case theoretically may differ widely when tried practically, it would be well to give this subject a good trial. While on the subject of the effect of the bow and stern guns on large vessels, with the usual sized guns of this class, we think it cannot be doubted that small vessels, with very heavy guns at their extremes, must be in some measure impeded or accelerated while keeping up a quick fire at either extreme. We have often seen boats fitted in the following manner, to prevent the sudden recoil of the guns coming on the boat. Two holes, like hawse-holes, were made one on each side of the stem of the boat; the breeching was then rove as usual to the gun; the two ends were then rove through the hole on each side of the stem; to each end of the breeching was attached a weight in proportion to the size of the gun, so that when the gun was run out, the weights were close to the water; but the moment the gun was fired, the weights ran up to the holes, consequently brought little or no sudden jerk on the boat. Perhaps a large frigate, sailing at the rate of eight or nine knots, would be about as much retarded by firing bow-chasers as a launch would be in firing an equal number of muskets in the same direction, going at her full speed. What we wish to observe more particularly is, that when it is required to fire bowguns, that the size of the ship, compared with the size of the guns to be fired, is not sufficiently taken into consideration; for the same difficulty appears to exist about firing a bow-gun in a three decked ship, or a vessel not above one-fourth her size, carrying the same metal on the decks where bow-guns are usually fired from. Before quitting this subject, it appears that when our ships of war have been obliged to retreat from a superior force, and a stern chaser has ensued, that it would have given them a much better chance of a good retreat had they substituted two of their main-deck guns for two of the quarter-deck carronades.
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Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: How does firing cannon effect sailing ships?
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2011, 03:39:26 PM »
Though I have actually tested this to some degree, I've never really considered it to be a significant issue.  The theory is based on Newton's third law - that for every action, there is an eual and opposite reaction, which in this case, is concerning momentum - the offset of the projectile*it's velocity has to be accounted for in the motion of the ship.  I disagree that this is so.  Here's why - it depends on the cannon in question.  I'm assuming that the majority of such cannon were mounted on a rolling carriage.  If so, the majority of the recoil of the carriage (the force of which is the same as the mass*velocity of the projectile), if absorbed in the recoil, which is retarded by friction on the deck, and fully stopped, if necessary, by the rigging, which has some elasticity, and therefore doesn't impart the full stopping force on the ship.  So, you see, much of the resultant force is dispersed in the recoil of the carriage, so the boat is not significantly effected.  Of course, if the guns were yoke mounted, there would be no recoil, so all of the resultant force would go directly into the ship, possibly resulting in retarding or accelerating it's motion.
 
Of course, all that said, I will go back to my first comment - I have tested this to some degree.  What I meant by that is I have fired 1.5" bore cannon on wood and metal hulled sailboats up to 55' long.  In doing so, I never saw fit to use rigging, so I can't fully describe to effect it may have had, but allowing naval carriages to recoil freely, they generally stopped about 1.5-2' back from their firing position (furthest ever was around 3' due to a slicker deck surface).  When firing, most of these were being fired from the topdeck on either side, but sometimes from the bow, and occasionally directed forward.  The shots when the cannon were directed forward, there was no discernable effect on the boat, either in speed or in pitch.  The shots directed to a side at times could be felt to induce a slight roll, when the waves were light, even a little yaw when fired to the side from the bow - again, only when the waves were light, and the boat wasn't at speed. 
 
Given the slight effect felt from the small guns, I'd love to test the larger ones, but I still don't think they'd have a significant effect on the ability of a ship to catch up to another in a chase-down situation.  A bigger factor is which ships are involved.  Typically, one of the ships will be a faster vessel, and whichever is will have the advantage, with or without any cannon being fired.  For instance, consider a typical pirate vessel vs a merchant or war ship.  The pirate vessel is usually going to be significantly smaller, faster, and more agile than a merchant or war ship, which will probably have significantly more and heavier guns.  If the pirate vessel is attacking, it's coming up quickly, and firing at the rudder of the larger ship to attempt to immobilize it, however, it's main purpose of firing at this point is just to let the merchant vessel know that it is attacking (most pirates weren't so bold, as being so often resulted in their demise).  In this situation, the pirate vessel is significantly faster than the larger ship, but also significantly less armed, and won't keep firing unless in an outright battle, so as to conserve it's resources, and only when within range, at which point, it's speed will allow it to easily overtake the larger ship regardless.  Now consider the pirate ship fleeding the merchant ship or the war ship.  It can easily out maneuver the larger ship, and it's significantly faster, so the merchant or warship firing upon it is in effort to stop it to allow it to catch up.  If it can't disable the smaller ship, it will get away.  Of course, it's cannon have more range, and probably are better supplied, so it can keep it up for a while, in hopes that it can halt the fleeing pirates.  Again, in this instance, any effect the cannon has on it's speed is insignificant compared to it's ability to make speed.

Offline Zulu

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Re: How does firing cannon effect sailing ships?
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2011, 04:00:56 PM »
Yeah, what he said! ;D ;D
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Offline Double D

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Re: How does firing cannon effect sailing ships?
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2011, 05:06:40 PM »
The other day while watch the revolutionary forces take over Tripoli they showed some sort anti Aircraft gun mounted  in the bed of a Toyota Land Cruiser PU. They revolutionary's were firing direct fire straight back, as  they truck was backing up. Each time they fire the gun to the vehicle visibly lurched back and slowed.  When they drove forward and they fired the truck jumped forward. I'll be there was a close relation ship between the recoil energy of this gun and the energy of the truck in motion-and spring weight mass-the ability of the vehicles spring to resiste motion.

The recoil energy of what ever gun is fired rear ward or forward will have have an effect, the amount of the effect will be determined by the total amount of recoil energy transmitted to the mass of the moving body. 

Were are our  Math wizards, George are you home yet or are you still out playing tourist?

The HMS Victory weighs 3500 tons  and has a speed of 8 to 9 knots.   It bow chasers are 1.7 ton 12-PDRs.  What is the muzzle velocity of the these guns.  What is the free recoil energy of these guns.  What is the forward speed energy of this ship.   What is the ratio of gun energy to ship movement energy.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: How does firing cannon effect sailing ships?
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2011, 06:06:14 PM »
The HMS Victory weighs 3500 tons ...

And this is the important point.  Some of the recoil momentum is going to be dissipated as heat from friction in various ways but the ship's forward momentum is going to be affected by the recoil momentum.  However, the change is going to be so small as to be ignored. 

Assuming that all of the recoil momentum (no friction) is absorbed by the ship, and the velocity of the shot is 500 ft/sec (which is probably high), the shot would have in arbitrary units 500 x 12 = 6000 moms.  The 3500 ton ship would have 3500 x 2000 x 4 ft/sec = 28,000,000 moms, giving a ratio of 3:14000 which is approximately 1:4667.  That difference would not be measurable with the instruments of the day.

The Toyota probably weighs about 3000 lbs and the velocity of the AA guns is probably 3000 ft/sec (order of magnitude, at least) so the momentum ratio is going to be much larger with a corresponding larger effect.
GG
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Offline eod20

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Re: How does firing cannon effect sailing ships?
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2011, 06:07:12 PM »
i have no idea what it does to a ship but i do know that an A-10 firing its 30mm cannon can not fire for more than 2-3 seconds without fear of stalling the aircraft and falling out of the sky -- and that is a gatling gun that uses up most of teh recoil force to spin and load the barrels
 
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: How does firing cannon effect sailing ships?
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2011, 06:17:38 PM »
Regarding the A-10/GAU-8 system, check this Wikipedia article.
GG
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Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: How does firing cannon effect sailing ships?
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2011, 08:13:25 PM »
Though this has already been answered, I figured some of you may be interested in seeing more detail:
 
As I said before, and as George approached this, this is a matter of momentum, which is defined as mass*velocity, and which must be conserved according to Newton's 3rd Law.  Therefore, your answers are as follows:
 
Using VP-Sim, I assumed the cannon was most similar to the 12 Pounder Garrison, which had a projectile of 86100grain, which was shot with a muzzle velocity of 1851fps.
 
Using this information, we can do some number crunching:
86100gr * 0.000142857143lb/gr = 12.3lb
 
The momentum of the projectile is:
12.3lb * 1851ft/s = 22767.3lb*ft/s
 
The momentum of the cannon carriage has to be equal to the momentum of the ball:
1.7ton * 2000lb/ton = 3400lb
22767.3lb*ft/s / 3400lb = 6.696ft/s
 
So, the carriage will want to roll backward at 6.696fps.
 
Now, the problem comes that we haven't established how the cannon is situated on the deck.  If it is free rolling, it will roll until friction or the rigging stops it.  We don't know these thing, so I will make some assumptions:
 
Assuming it is free rolling, we can calculate the time it takes to stop as follows:
v(t)=v(0)-a*t (velocity at any given time equals the initial velocity minus the deceleration due to friction times the time)
Because F=m*a, we can make a substitution for a=F/m:
V(t)=v(0)-t*F/m
 
Now we need the frictional force, which is defined as Ff=uN (yes, friction if FuN!), where ì is the coefficient of friction.  Because we don't know the specific coefficient of friction, we must make another assumption, which I've done.  For wood-wood, u is .25-.5, and for wood-metal, u is .2-.6.  For wet wood-wood or wet wood-metal, it is .2.  Of course, this is for static friction, and kinetic friction is usually lower, but for simplicity sake, and since we're already making assumptions, I've assumed .2, which is the least effect of friction.
 
Therefore, Ff=uN = .2*3400lb*32.17ft/s^2 = 21875.6lb*ft/s^2
 
Because we are concerned with when the carriage will stop rolling, v(t)=0, therefore:
 
v(0)=t*F/m, which solves to t=v(0)*m/F = 6.696ft/s * 3400lb / 21875.6lb*ft/s^2 = 1.041s roll time
 
Given the time it took to stop, we can use the following to determine the distance travelled:
s(t)=s(0)+v(0)*t+.5*a*t^2
a=(v(0)-v(t))/t, so substituting and regrouping:
s(t)=s(0)+.5*(v(t)+v(0))*t, since s(0) is the starting point, and v(t) is 0, they are both 0
s(1.041s)=.5*6.696ft/s*1.041s = 3.485ft
 
So, an unrestrained carriage would have a recoil of approximately 3.485ft in 1.041s.
 
It's already been answered, but for a little more detail:
 
If all this energy went directly into the HMS Victory, it would be the same as the first part:
3500ton * 2000lb/ton = 7,000,000lb
22767.3lb*ft/s / 7000000lb = 0.003252ft/s = 0.001927knot decrease in velocity
 
If going a full 8 knot, this is an effect of approximately 0.024%.  Again, it would be negligible.

Offline keith44

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Re: How does firing cannon effect sailing ships?
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2011, 09:15:38 PM »
When I was in the US Navy I had the priviledge of witnessing the USS IOWA firing a full broadside.  She moved sideways (to starboard if I remember correctly) what appeared to be 10 feet!!  Granted this is with solid mounted LARGE guns and all of them going off at nearly the same time, using BP as a starter charge for the smokeless main charge.  But I can easily see where the slowing effect of a mounted gun on a sail powered vessel could be felt.  A free recoiling piece restrained or guided by ropes would or should have minimal effects at least according to my little broke thinker.
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: How does firing cannon effect sailing ships?
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2011, 09:24:32 PM »
I am not saying that the shock of the shot would not be felt on board the ship, only that it would have negligible effect on the velocity of the ship.
GG
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Offline Gun Runner

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Re: How does firing cannon effect sailing ships?
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2011, 10:06:44 PM »
I have watched the New Jersey fire in V/N. very impressive, was told that a full broadside would move it 54 feet sideways. Never saw a full broadside but was impressed watchin it fire.

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Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: How does firing cannon effect sailing ships?
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2011, 07:01:34 PM »
I suppose I can throw in a little extra:
 
If we want to know the effect the free rolling carriage has on the ship, we already have the information needed for that calculation:
 
The kinetic energy of the ship is expressed as E=.5*m*v^2, and this will be effected by the work done by friction in stopping the carriage in a free roll (frictional force*distance) = Ff*d, so .5*m*v^2=Ff*d
 
Solving for v:
 
v = (2*Ff*d/m)^.5 = (2*21875.6lb*ft/s^2*3.485ft/7000000lb)^.5 = 0.1476ft/s = 0.08745knot (1.09% of 8knot sailing speed)
 
I thought it strange when I first calculated this, as it is significantly higher than the effect if the barrel were fixed to the ship.  In a way, I can rationalize it as having more effect on the ship due to the increased time of their interaction, but I think it's also possible something is messed up in my calculations, which I admit may have happened, as I haven't done this stuff in 10+ years.  If anyone sees anything I did wrong (or can further explain why there is a greater effect on the speed of the ship when the cannon is free rolling), please point it out.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: How does firing cannon effect sailing ships?
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2011, 08:05:07 PM »
I think the flaw is using kinetic energy instead of momentum.  Momentum is conserved but kinetic energy is not.
GG
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Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: How does firing cannon effect sailing ships?
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2011, 10:39:49 PM »
Newton's laws govern this, as does the first law of thermodynamics, which states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, so there is conservation of energy, and the amount of work done in any system combined with heat (or any other form of energy) must be constant unless there is an external energy source or drain.  Kinetic energy is defined as the amount of work required to accelerate a body from rest to another velocity, which is exactly what we're talking about.  Energy balances are definitely the proper way of solving this problem (momentum can only be used as we already have used it), though I've possibly left something out in my calculation.  However, since we are looking at a ship that for all intents has no change in potential energy, that side of the equation should be right, and after the initial force of the cannon firing, the only force (and therefore, energy) involved in the carriage moving is the friction, which is progressively retarding it's movement.  I cannot see a large amount of heat developing in this process, which would be the only other energy drain I can think of.
 
Actually, I just realized that I may need to factor in the KE of the carriage, so I will do that, but being 3:30 in the morning right now, I'll look into that later.

Offline gunsonwheels

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Re: How does firing cannon effect sailing ships?
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2011, 04:53:00 AM »
Back in college, I did a complete force, energy and velocity analysis of the 40mm I was building for an escapee from Thiocol - the rocket people - who was then a professor of mine.  After going over my work he corrected me by saying the mass of the propellant must be considered as it too is part of the mass of the activity... (it occurred to me that duh yeh... that is how rockets work).  He said their experieince showed 1/2 the mass of the powder needed to be added to the projo mass to get it to come out right.  I remember the resultant velocity of the entire gun was 11 fps toward the rear after the slug come out at 1100 fps toward the front.  Forces in the trunnions, cheekstocks and their bolts and the axle were also examined to determine if everything would hold up for shooting.
 
The ship isn't going to be affected much (negligible) but a lightly carriaged naval piece had best be restrained especially if someone runs a proof load in it.  About that same time I went to a shoot and I tried to warn the guy to tie it down but I think he decided I was just a smart ass college kid and ignored me... projo went one direction and the gun went the other doing about three summersaults as it did... he'd just finished it and had it all prettied up and the proofing scarred it up pretty good

Offline brokenpole

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Re: How does firing cannon effect sailing ships?
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2011, 07:14:49 AM »
Y'all can keep up all this high fangled thinkin. I personally am a card carrying member of densa and I sirs am going to have a drink of my choice.  Salute!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D

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Offline Dixiejack

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Re: How does firing cannon effect sailing ships?
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2011, 08:30:04 AM »
Remembering some math from years gone by and being an avid sailor until arthritis took over, I have read your discourse with great interest and it was somewhat entertaining.  Unfortunately, I have nothing of a scientific nature to add. 


I do have one observation.  I thought on modern ships that artillery had a type of floating barrel/recoil system to keep the ship from rolling too much.  My only experience with ship's cannon was a 10 ga. signal cannon.  LOL 

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: How does firing cannon effect sailing ships?
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2011, 09:36:02 AM »
I don't think we are taking this too seriously.  It's fun for me to try to play with math and physics on the rare occasion that such a problem presents itself.  I'm happy it is amusing to some of you to follow it.
 
After considering the matter further, I'm convinced I was right about needing to include the energy of the carriage in the calculations of energy balance, since you can't address the energy of the work of friction without addressing the energy in the carriage.
 
As such, my revised equation is this:
.5*ms*vs2=.5*mc*vc2-Ff*dc
Note: The frictional work should be subtracted from the kinetic energy in the carriage, as it is acting against it.
 
Now we must again solve for vs:
vs=[(mc*vc2-2*Ff*dc)/ms].5 = [|(3400lb*(6.696ft/s)2-2*21875.6lb*ft/s2*3.485ft)/7000000lb|].5 = 0.002040ft/s = 0.001209knot decrease in velocity of the ship (0.015% of 8knot)
 
Note: I took the absolute value of the difference in energies before taking the square root, as we aren't dealing with an imaginary number, and it is just the net difference that we are concerned with.