Author Topic: A very good all-around piece, or neither fish nor fowl? (Read 2294 times)

mannyrock · « **on:** September 13, 2011, 07:09:06 AM »

Dear Folks,

It seems as if I am seeing for sale a fair number of used 20 gauge Remington 870 Wingmasters (not Express) , with 3 inch chambers and 20 inch, cylinder barrels, with rifle sights.

I have very little experience with 20 gauge.

Do you think this would be a good all-around piece, in good times or bad? Or, is it somewhat like an M1 Carbine, too much in the lower-middle range, neither fish nor fowl?

Effective range on small game? I keep thinking only 35 yards or so, but maybe I am wrong? (Maybe a Rem-choke system could be installed?)

(A friend of mine had an 870 Express in 20 gauge, that I used at the skeet range one day. A terrible, gritty action compared to the Wingmasters I have tried. It also had a plastic follower, which would constantly stick and make it hard to load rounds in the tube. So, I would never consider an Express.)

Thanks for all opinions,

Mannyrock

billythekid55 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 13, 2011, 07:44:37 AM »

I would opt for a Wingmaster over the Express. I just like the Wingmasters. That said, we have (2) 870 Express in 20 gauge we use for our hunter education classes, NWTF (Turkey Federation) "JAKES" and "Women in the Outdoors" events and have had no problem with them. For a good all around gun in good times or bad, I think either the 20 gauge or 12 gauge would be easier to get shells for than any of the other gauges. I have a 12 gauge Wingmaster and find myself using low recoil loads because of a shoulder problem. The 20 gauge has does have less recoil for recoil sensitive shooters. I wish I was seeing a few 20 gauge Wingmasters, I would like one. Around here (Madison, Wisconsin) used barrels are often available so you can add a bird barrel too.

A good coating of CLP Break Free will help with the action on the Express. Also helps keep the rust down.
Thanks, BillyTheKid

sachel.45 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 13, 2011, 04:55:34 PM »

I have an 870 express youth model in 20 gauge That I like, it makes a nice woods bumming gun. BTW it's not really a fair comparison between an express and a wingmaster one is about 300 new and the other is just over 600 in my area (new). The express will smooth out over time. I have a few expresses and I haven't had a problem with any of them and there quite smooth now.

don heath · « **Reply #3 on:** September 13, 2011, 09:05:42 PM »

Don't know the gun but do have a set of 20g barrels for my Krieghoff double rifle and wife had a benneli M2 in 20g (now she has an M2 in 12g)

Recoil- With regular trap loads there is no difference I can feel between 12g & 20g in similar weight guns. (and there shouldn't be- both a throwing the same weight of shot at the same speed). With normal buckshot loads..a 3" 20 has the same normal capacity as a 12g 2 3/4, and I can see no difference in effect, and generally they throw similar patterns.

My only complaint against the 20g in Africa is that ammo is hard to come by and more expensive than 12g. Ammo is less bulky but pretty much the same weight. Only real advantage is the guns can be built lighter (but then they kick more). I do a huge ammount of shooting with my 20g- skiet, trap and fun shoots, and have no complaints about effectiveness- I sold my Browning Citori 12g as I was only shooting clays with the 20. No difference in max range, no harder to break clays except on the really close stuff in Skiet (and that is because the chokes in the Krieghoff 20 are fixed IC and M )

billythekid55 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 14, 2011, 03:48:37 AM »

Some time ago, Field and Stream had a chart of Recoil Energy of Common Firearms and Loads. I cut it out and share it with our Hunter Ed students. Below is a comparison of 20 vs 12 gauge from the chart.
20-gauge: heavy-game load, 1 oz. of shot at 1,220 fps, field gun weighing 6.5 lbs -- 15 ft-lb (Moderate)
12-gauge: heavy-game load, 1 1/4 oz. of shot at 1,400 fps, field gun weighing 7.3 lb. (common 2 3/4-inch pheasant load) -- 30 ft-lb (Nasty)

thanks, billythekid55

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #5 on:** September 14, 2011, 04:17:08 AM »

20 ga is like a 30 carbine , light and fast . Slugs in a 20 are good . Buck shot is limited in size to #3 , at one time #2 was aval. but I seldom see it. But when a buck shot hits someone going 1200 FPS it makes little difference in what ga it came from. The 12ga 23/4 shell in reality is close to the 20 ga 3 inch shell. for fine shot weight if not pattern quality.
If a smaller stature person is in your group a 20 may be a good choice as it would allow them better use of it.

mannyrock · « **Reply #6 on:** September 14, 2011, 08:58:40 AM »

Dear Guys,

Well, I guess that the way I framed my questions, I accidentally turned this into a "Wingmaster" vs. "Express" discussion. That was not my intent.

I am kinda more interested in what you can do and not do, on an all purpose basis, with a 20 gauge pump with a 20 inch smooth bore barrel, with cyinder or IC choke, and rifle sights.

Yes, I know they don't kick like a 12, and yes I know they are really nice for skeet. (I've shot skeet with a 20 gauge a fair number of times). But, skeet and real world usefulness are diffferent considerations.

Thanks for any additional information.

Mannyrock

blind ear · « **Reply #7 on:** September 14, 2011, 10:03:16 AM »

No comparison to an M1 carbine. The Express will kill anything that the Wingmaster will kill and that is anything that walks on the North American continent.

Did you ask the question you wished to ask? ear

wwjmbd · « **Reply #8 on:** September 15, 2011, 06:33:39 PM »

I think a 20 guage wingmaster would be an excellent choice, I would much prefer a barrel that had interchangable chokes though. The useful range on birds with a 20" barrel & ic or cylinder bore choke imo would be much less than 35 yards.

myronman3 · « **Reply #9 on:** September 16, 2011, 04:51:14 AM »

only a fool would underestimate a 20 gauge. i have carried one for years, and made shots guys with 12 gauges couldnt make. people laughed at me when i showed up to go duck hunting with it....they were not laughing at the end of the day. it is the indian, not the arrow. i now use a 28 gauge, so a 20 seems big to me. a 20 gauge is a good solid all around gun.

schoolmaster · « **Reply #10 on:** September 19, 2011, 03:51:02 AM »

If I bought it, I would have it fitted up with some screw in chokes to make the birdshot a little more effective although if the barrel is choked improved cylinder it would work pretty good at 25-30 yards. Nothing wrong with 20 ga slugs, I have shot a bunch of them. I think the 3 inch 20 ga slug is about perfect for deer within the accurate range of the gun. Never used buckshot but some creative reloading would make buckshot effective at resonable ranges.

Rex in OTZ · « **Reply #11 on:** November 25, 2011, 07:54:48 AM »

Why not buy a after markit ribbed barrel with swappy chokes?
have both bassis coverd?

I did that with my wingmaster.

Theres all sorts of possibilities.
One our local Gun Nuts just reported back Yess you can shoot 410 out your 45-70 Ruger #1
effective range is about 15 yards.
the local radio station has a swap and shop radio program, for 2 weeks the same shotgun was advertised for sale and never sold, was a 12ga Mossburg 500 with 2 barrel set up (rifle sighted one ribbed and choke tubed), both factory ported at muzzle came in a Copeland Gun Boot for $200

Bought a used boltaction mag fed 20ga savage from J&G Sales of Prescott AZ for $49

Couger · « **Reply #12 on:** November 25, 2011, 06:32:50 PM »

"All-around" shotgun gauge?

In the USA and around the world ..... gonna be a 12 ga EVERY TIME!

Twenty gauge is an excellent upland gauge and it does well at the skeet range and sporting clays, and even trap if patterned/loaded for/compensated well for its smaller bore .....

But when selecting a survival / hard-use piece ..... don't overlook the ability to find POPULAR and easily found AND AFFORDABLE ammunition!

Plus a 12 gauge is the universal 'combat' gauge used by all militaries and law enforcement.

Personally I use a 20 gauge for all my recreational shooting with few exceptions. Hope to someday have an affordable 28ga O/U.

But for 'zombie' and SHTF duties my family uses the 12gagg (despite having a 20ga M870 youth-Express set up for smaller family members and home defense ......).

NOTE: Rearely does it seem 'RESUPPLY' and 'POPULARITY' is emphsaized enough in these threads. **SPECIFIC GAUGES and CALIBERS** are no-brainers when it comes to survival or depression choices!

A personal project I haven't completed is a Versa 4-Pak I'm putting together. On an SB-2 frame I already have a versaP .22LR barrel that fits tight without any wobble ..... The previous .30/06 barrel wasn't tight enough and will be replaced with a factory-fitted barrel, along with factory fitted 12 ga Pardner and .223 (std contour) barrels, both 22inches long.

With those four VERY POPULAR catridges I expect to be able to bag anything from field mice to bison! And to find ammo 98% of the time wherever ammo might be found.

Also I reload, so building reduced loads, even for the 12 gauge will be VERY simple and doable.

Lee Loader kits would be very useful at this point too, except for the rimfires.

Couger · « **Reply #13 on:** November 25, 2011, 06:50:00 PM »

ADDED: for an all-around simple shotgun I think two or three choices pop up;

#1. A solid 12ga pump (in a Remmie 870, or Mossberg 500 or 590, of even and Ithaca M37 has proven a good choice, or a Browning BPS if one showed for the right price and could be modified if necessary ......

#2. A solid 12ga SXS doublegun (even like the "cheap" but very sought-after Savage Model 311's).

or #3. A 12ga single-shot H&R, Winchester, Savage, etc., etc. At a gun show not long ago I (stupidly) passed on a deal that was a Winchester SS M37A in 12ga, with a polychoke attached! For $125. I was short of cash.

But as mentioned in the abvove posts by several, multiple chokes would be a must!

don heath · « **Reply #14 on:** December 12, 2011, 07:32:00 PM »

Managed to lay in some buckshot for my Krieghoff , a mix of No 2 and No 3, remington and Federal brands. The No 3 patterened extremely well and I used it on bush pig. works as well as SSSG from a 12g. I would have been happier if the No 2 had patterned better but it it didn't...so Federal No 3's it is for home defence etc.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #15 on:** December 13, 2011, 01:55:22 AM »

If you get the 20 ga. 870 it might be worth while to get a smooth bore bbl with rifle sights then have it threaded for rem chokes . I did this and have chokes for shot and rifled tube for slugs . The slug tube is a speical rifling for both foster and sabot slugs and it works. I also added a magazine extension. Due to the abuse this gun will see I chose an Express , gun show gun for $160.00 . It will never reach the smoothness of a well broken in Wingmaster but after several hundred rounds it has smoothed to being on its way to better . What it offers over the Wingmaster is a non glare finish , a good thing.

mannyrock · « **Reply #16 on:** December 13, 2011, 04:30:03 AM »

Thanks for the advice Shootall. That would probably be the best solution.

About 10 years ago, I saw an article in G&A, where the author test fired an 870 that had a 24 inch smooth barrel, using the screw in rifle choke and slugs. He had a scope on the gun.

The gun consistently shot 3 inch groups at 100 yards. He was very very surprised. Funny that you don't see more people using this device.

He did have to try out several brands of slugs to get the right ones though.

Mannyrock

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #17 on:** December 13, 2011, 08:07:33 AM »

I first tried it with a 12 ga. I used remington tubes one flush one extended . They were for sabot slugs only . The flush tube out shot the extended with every slug I tried. Who would have thunk it ?

Now if you cut a bbl and add sights the rib post at around 23 3/4 inches on the 12 ga works best to cut at. Might be same for 20 ga.
My rifle tube for the 20 is an after market tube by Carslie ( sp ) it says for use with foster or sabot slugs. What it looks like is the rifling comes to a sorta sharp edge not a flat land. Maybe like big micro grooving. It works well enough if shots are not expected over 100 or so yards a foster slug will work fine.

blind ear · « **Reply #18 on:** December 13, 2011, 07:03:37 PM »

Shootall, does your rifled tube shoot many rounds before it needs cleaning? I have a Sniper extended tube and 3 shots is all you can count on from it with sabous. (Fosters, I tried a couple, didn't work.) Clean it and it will do 3" at 100 yds.

Carlson's was the only brand that I found in a search and the lans looked flat but I could'nt really tell.

I would appreciate more info.

Thanks ear

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #19 on:** December 15, 2011, 08:16:15 AM »

Carlson is the one I have in now it also has slugs or sabots on the tube . I shot it last night with sabots to check sights . Two slugs both touching at 30 yards . It was off hand with open sights luck may have been involved as it was almost dark. I had shot alot last year sighting in and trying several slugs and had not cleaned the tube or gun. Both foster and sabot slugs had been shot. I don't have an accurate count but it must be getting close to 20-25. And yes the tube is dirty in the valleys but the lands are bright and bright. I don't shoot to 100 yards but would guess you are correct about cleaning for that distance. The foster slugs I shot were winchester and they would work well out to 50 or so yards in my tube. I seldom shoot the 20 ga much farther . I have a tube for buck shot and when walking that's in if I take a stand then the rifled tube goes in .
I have to find the other tube with the odd rifling ( I have two sons that think my stuff is for their use) .

blind ear · « **Reply #20 on:** December 15, 2011, 03:52:58 PM »

So both of yout tubes have odd rifeling? Does the link below look right? I can't tell anything that different about the rifeling by picture.

http://www.choketube.com/wbmw.html

http://www.choke-tube.com/proddetail.asp?prod=19473

The rifled ard about 1/3 scroll down.

My sniper won' hit a 24X24 target reliably after 5 shots with sabos. I'm working on getting my smooth bores accurate but I have one choke tube pump that I wan't a dependable rifled choke for.

thanks ear

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #21 on:** December 16, 2011, 04:55:25 AM »

Quote from: blind ear on December 15, 2011, 03:52:58 PM

So both of yout tubes have odd rifeling? Does the link below look right? I can't tell anything that different about the rifeling by picture.

No the one like yours is like most . Its the other that has the odd rifling . I am trying to locate it.
http://www.choketube.com/wbmw.html

http://www.choke-tube.com/proddetail.asp?prod=19473

#40020 is the one I think.
The rifled ard about 1/3 scroll down.

My sniper won' hit a 24X24 target reliably after 5 shots with sabos. I'm working on getting my smooth bores accurate but I have one choke tube pump that I wan't a dependable rifled choke for.

Try lightfield slugs if you have not. I use the hybrid ones with the impact disguarding sabot.
You might have a defective choke tube . The tube I have/had with the odd rifling is a bright SS finish and it also is extended which might have been why I switched it so reflection was not a problem .
thanks ear

Couger · « **Reply #22 on:** December 16, 2011, 06:21:08 AM »

Quote from: blind ear

Carlson's was the only brand that I found in a search and the lans looked flat but I could'nt really tell.

I would appreciate more info.

Thanks ear

In the world of after-market 20ga chokes. there is a definite shortage of 20ga choices. But Carlson is the most popular/common that I see too. (check Brownell's as well as whatever search engines).

And while they may indeed be unattractive, don't overlook Polychoke. Gabe Suarez recommends a Polychoke for a defensive and even LE shotguns (and why not? with the literal flick of one's wrist you could adjust that device to whatever shotshell load you are using!).

ADDED: I know I'm a proponent of the 12gagg for all-around use, but the 20ga is no slouch in peacgeful (non-SHTF) times and my first choice for upland hunting. Also I have a 20ga (syn) youth combo M870 Express, with four barrels! One is a 26" VR Remchoke, but also a plain smoothbore bbl I got for cutting to 18 1/2" for home defense. This combo-M870 came with a fully rifled 20" bbl and a Remchoke 21incher.