Author Topic: 9.3x74R Ammunition - Factory vs handloads  (Read 3646 times)

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Offline sae8425

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9.3x74R Ammunition - Factory vs handloads
« on: November 17, 2010, 10:18:47 PM »
Is it possible to find/use very light bullets in the 9.3x74R?

Sellier & Bellot list a 193 gr load for the 9.3x72R (but I gather that this is a .358" diameter, not the .366" diameter used in the 9.3x74R).

The lightest current factory load I've found are Norma's 232 gr (2,630 fps & 3,535 fpe). I gather Norma did a 193 gr load, but is this still available?

But both of these would seem to be somewhat heavy for knocking over whitetail deer (much less small varmints).

Factory 'heavy' loads all seem to be 286 gr.

And until the deer start wearing flak jackets, I don't see the need for these bruisers either.

So perhaps it would be best (it certainly would be much cheaper) to handload.

Hawk (annealed 'dead soft' copper jackets over pure lead cores) lists bullets from 200 gr to 320 gr (all with .030" jackets).
They also indicate that they could custom produce both lighter and heavier bullets (as long as you buy 200 at a time).

Has anyone used bullets lighter than 193 gr in the 9.3x74R?

Has anyone used the Hawk 320 gr bullets in the 9.3x74R? This would seem to be ideal for North American heavy game.

Has anyone used any of the Hawk bullets? Their technology would seem to be an ideal partner for the 9.3x74R.

Can anyone offer any suggested handloading guidelines for the 9.3x74R?

Is there a reloading manual that covers the 9.3x74R in significant detail? I've seen extensive data on the internet for the 7x57R from KWK. Does KWK publish reloading data for the 9.3x74R? If so, does anyone have access to it?

Does anyone handload 'reduced power' loads for lower recoil and/or for varmint hunting?

Many thanks for taking the time to respond.

Best regards,

Steve

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: 9.3x74R Ammunition - Factory vs handloads
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2010, 08:05:20 AM »
  Here's another case of trying to use too light a bullet for the caliber.  The 9.3x74R was designed for heavier bullets for bigger game.  The heavier bullets work very well for deer on up, so why not use them?  Going with light bullets in 9.3mm ends up getting you very soft bullets that only work well on rib shots.

  I've found the 270 Speer bullet the softest bullet i'd use in 9.3mm at 74R velocities on deer, and some complain that they are on too soft side.

  Maybe a smaller cartridge would be better for your use?

  DM

Offline sae8425

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Re: 9.3x74R Ammunition - Factory vs handloads
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2010, 08:46:40 PM »
DM,

I should start off by saying that I've never handloaded anything, so perhaps I'm really off-base about all of this.

However, there is a South African gunsmith by the name of Gerard Schultz (www.gsgroup.co.za) who has developed a range of solid copper monometalic bullets from .22 Hornet to .550 Magnum. These are both lighter and longer than a normal jacketed/cored bullet, and in all calibers, are designed to travel much faster than a traditionally constructed bullet.

Mr. Schultz is of the opinion that momentum (bullet weight x velocity) is much more important than energy (half bullet weight x velocity squared) in effectively killing game.

His data shows that lighter bullets traveling faster have higher terminal momentum levels than heavier bullets traveling slower (however at very short range distances the heavier/slower bullets do maintain a slight momentum advantage).

His data also shows that for short range use, a bullet needs to be spun much faster than is needed for long range use (in order to produce the optimum wound ballistics after impact).

His data indicates that a monometalic 9.3 mm bullet heavier than 195 gr doesn't have sufficient gyroscopic stability for short range use (especially on dangerous game). This bullet will evidently leave the muzzle at around 3000 fps (at no higher pressure levels than a 286 gr that leaves the muzzle at around 2300 fps). That's in .300 Win Magnum territory!

From the data he presents, the 1:14 rifling twist rate in the Valmet 412 is a positive liability for short range shooting.

Also, Hawk Bullets have told me they can produce a jacket/cored 9.3 mm bullet of 180 gr (and perhaps even a bit lighter).

Hawk definitely seem to believe that the majority of jacketed/cored bullets have cores that are too hard and jackets that are both too hard and too thick. But they also do offer slightly thicker (.035" vs .025") but the same hardness jackets on some bullet calibers that are designed for use in stopping critters that can stomp on/bite/maul you.

Any idea how thick/hard the jackets on 270-286 gr 9.3x74R bullets are?

Both of these firms have posted user reviews from very satisfied customers using lighter weight bullets traveling faster in rifles that were designed for use with much heavier bullets traveling more sedately.

So, at least some people seem to be having good success with the lighter/faster approach in heavier/slower rifle calibers.

I haven't read any user comments from a 9.3x74R owner. So perhaps the slow twist rate of the 9.3 mm will be a limitation.

That normal 270-285 gr bullets will dispatch game is not the issue. I'm simply wondering if it would be possible to 'extend the envelope' of a 9.3x74Rs capability without increasing the chamber pressures (or loosing accuracy).

Additionally, I can foresee lead bullets potentially being totally banned during my lifetime, so by starting to examine potential bullet alternatives today, I will be in a much better position to successfully make any transition in the future.

Like I said at the beginning of this reply, I might be way off base about all of this, but both of the bullet suppliers mentioned seem to have many satisfied customers who believe these bullets stop dangerous game much better than any traditional bullet they've used.

I do realize that there are a lot of variables in all of this and perhaps, given those impacting on the 9.3x74Rs performance, it simply isn't possible to improve upon the historically proven rounds in any meaningful way.

Best regards,

Steve

Offline AkMike1

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Re: 9.3x74R Ammunition - Factory vs handloads
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2010, 09:15:28 PM »
To start with what are you shooting? If it's a double rifle then you probably won't get it to regulate properly with light weight bullets. The 286 Privi's are a great bullet for deer or moose. You can practice very cheap! For larger critters the Nosler partitions are hard to beat.
 If you're shooting anything else I think you'll quickly discover that the barrel twist won't be right. Read up on "Greenhill's Formula"
 That's all said with regular bullets in mind. The new family of mono's fall into a catagory that I don't want to get into shooting.
AkMike

Offline Snowwolfe

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Re: 9.3x74R Ammunition - Factory vs handloads
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2010, 11:26:43 PM »
I don't mean any disrespect but why change the the 9,3 into something it isnt? If you want lighter and faster then go to a different caliber. It has been proven and reproven that velocities on the lower side, say 2,000 to 2,400 fps are about optimal for penetration. Have personally shot my last two Alaska moose with my 9,3 double and 286 grain Woodleighs. Am estimating velocity was 2,200-2,300 fps and I only recovered one bullet from both moose as the others penetrated completely.
The more experience I gain as a hunter the more I appreciate a heavy bullet going a moderate velocity. It flat out works. And don't discount the 9,3 as being a short range caliber as the last moose was shot at a lasered 286 yards with the factory iron sights.

Kind of follows the current trends in large caliber handgun hunting bullets. Big and slow.

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: 9.3x74R Ammunition - Factory vs handloads
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2010, 02:43:42 AM »
  I don't mean to sound like a "know it all", but every so many years, this whole idea cycles around, and someone new has a bright idea.  In a past life, i designed, swaged and sold bullets, including, .366" (9.3mm) so i kinda have an inderstanding how a bullet is made, and how it works.

  High velocity bullets do sometimes work very well, but it's the "sometimes" that's the problem.  There are no perfect bullets, but when it comes to the bigger big game, the tried and true are the best bet "if" reliable performance is what you are seeking.  If you want to experement, then you are on your own, and i feel sorry for the animals that some of them fail in, and some WILL.

  As for me, i'm sticking with NP's for my heavy duty work...

  DM

Offline sportclay

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Re: 9.3x74R Ammunition - Factory vs handloads
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2010, 04:12:09 AM »
I have loaded 200 gr Norma and Hawk bullets for the three rifles that I own chambered for this round (2 Doubles and a Ruger #1)  I gave up trying to regulate bullets in the doubles other than what they were regulated for until I happened upon a box of Norma 200gr FN SP at a gun show.  They were $20 and ..what the heck.  To my surprise the regulated fairly well in the Italian built Menagon Which was factory regulated for the RWS 286gr load and the velocities were respectable.  It shot 3 rights - 3 lefts into 3-4" at 80 yards.  Minute of deer.  The pre War Kreighoff will shoot them about the same group size but not to the sights.  Prints about 4" high at 50 yards.  I bought the Ruger#1 and it will shoot most everything extremely well at higher performance levels. i.e. no restrictions of regulation and ablitiy to handle higher pressures.  
The 9.3x72R is a .365" bullet and the older 200 gr Norma projectiles I acquired were undoubedtly for this round.  I have also tried some hard cast bullets 200 gr for the 9.3x72R from Buffalo Arms that also shot fairly well through the Ruger and the Menagon.  I also did a wildcat based on the 9.3x74R .  Necking it down to 35, blowing the shoulder out.  This in both a T/C Encore and most recently in a Ruger #1 .  I also tried Trail Boss in this cartridge with the 200 gr Norma.  Printed a bit low but 3" group at 50 yards out of the Menagon.  With enough zip to kill a whitetail at that range.  Mostly I reload the Hawk bullets at the regulated weight 285 and have the best performance with them.  It's what they were made to shoot and if it ain't broke don't try to fix it.  The experimenting is fun..  The Ruger #1 will allow you to shoot any bullet weight.  
Several years ago I found in an old gun shop 2 full boxes of factory loads for the 9.3x74R with 12.5 grm (193gr) bullets they go across the chronograph at just over 2840 fps and shoot very well out of the Menagon.  the Ruger shoots them well as expected.  This loading is no longer in their current export catalog but I understand it is available in Europe.  The catalog # 19327


Offline Drilling Man

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Re: 9.3x74R Ammunition - Factory vs handloads
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2010, 04:33:14 AM »
  I designed a family of cartridges on the 74R case too.  They started with 7mm, but the only one i did much with, was the ipm case, necked to 9.3mm...



  Anyway, it was at the end of my "wildcatting days" and i, for the most part, lost interest in the project.

  DM

Offline saltydog

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Re: 9.3x74R Ammunition - Factory vs handloads
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2010, 09:18:17 AM »
I shoot my 9X74R with a 5.6x52R barrel so the regulation issues over 100 yards become a concern in particular when not using factory ammo. If you are shooting an O/U configuration I recommend you it was regulated with. The big medium paced factory bullet has all the knockdown power you need for all but the largest dangerous African game under most situations.

Offline pastorp

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Re: 9.3x74R Ammunition - Factory vs handloads
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2010, 01:19:17 PM »
Sae,
A friend of mine is the us distributor for GSC bullets. These are the south African bullets your talking about. I'm sitting with a box of their 6.5 bullets in my hand. They are solid metal but not copper like barnes. They are available in a super sharp nose or a flat nose solid. You buy them for the caliber and barrel twist of your gun. Mine are for 1:8.7" twist and weigh 110gr I have the HV type (pointed) I will eventually try them in my 260rem. The box is marked 6.5x55 which about duplicates the 260 velocity.

Can't say how good they are personally but my friend has been to Africa several times and is quite impressed with them. They do look odd being unlike anything I've used before in appearance or construction. My understanding is they are layth turned and so hand made. They are expensive.

Regards,
Byron

Christian by choice, American by the grace of God.

NRA LIFE

Offline Thelemorf

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Re: 9.3x74R Ammunition - Factory vs handloads
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2011, 05:40:00 AM »
Old thread i know. But since i found this through google others might too.

It is possible to use the 9x18 Makarov (9.25mm/.364") bullets in 9.3 (.366) cal rifles.

Best is to only use neck calibration on brass shot in the actual rifle.

3 shots With Hornady HP/XTP 95grs- 49grs Norma 200 - (9.3x62)

V0 1: 878.4 m/s
V0 2: 863.2 m/s
V0 3: 823.6 m/s
Spread:18mm @ 100m

A while back (somewhere in the 1970-1980 range) Norma had a 10g (154gr) bullet available in 9.3x57/62/74R.

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: 9.3x74R Ammunition - Factory vs handloads
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2011, 06:53:22 AM »
  I wouldn't want to use them for full power loads, unless you slug your 9.3 and it's a bit undersize in the first place.
 
  These days, in the US, 9.3 bullets aren't hard to get at all, so personally,  i'd just stick with the proper bullets for the game hunted.
 
  DM