Author Topic: CVA Optima Help (Read 2682 times)

tsigmon · « **on:** October 02, 2011, 02:46:24 AM »

I thought I posted this late last night but I must of hit the wrong button. I have a .50 CVA Optima muzzel loader, serial number ending 05, that is giving me fits. I cant get this thing to group to save my life. I've used Hornady sabots (250 gr), Power belts (245 and 295 gr) and a few left over T/C sabots (200 gr). Nothing will group. The power belts have been the most consistant but still nothing to brag on, might get 2-3 to hit close ,2", but then fliers high, low, left and right. Or it might send 3 fliers then group 2-3 shots fine . Any advice before I throw this thing in the river? Has any body used a maxi ball in one of these?

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #1 on:** October 02, 2011, 07:22:00 AM »

What primers and powder are you using?

Have you been cleaning between shots?

tsigmon · « **Reply #2 on:** October 02, 2011, 07:57:07 AM »

Powder may be part of my problem. Got talked into Shockey's Gold. As with anything you can find any type of review you want on the internet but I read several that described the same situation I ran into. I have regular loose black powder , Triple 7 50/50 pellets and Pyrodex 50/50 pellets on hand so I think I will start with 3 shots of each and see what happens. First I have to see if I have enough of one kind of bullet to shoot each of the powders . After doing a lot of reading late last night I think the powder choice may be more critical than I originally thought. Dang if a fella couldn't about go broke trying to sort this all out! Been using Win. 209 "For inline muzzel loaders" primers. Also, I was cleaning between each shot, there again some folks swear by doing that some swear at doing it. Guess I go to try that too. Might take up fishing instead ......

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #3 on:** October 02, 2011, 09:51:15 AM »

ahhhh yes. With Shockeys Gold you have to seat the bullet and then lean into it until you feel the powder compress. Without doing this, accuracy can and will be all over the place.

Try 100gr Pyrodex or T7 pellets, swab the bore clean after each shot and try both the 245 and 295gr Powerbelts.

This may help you as well. This will basically show you how primers, powders, bullet weight can affect your accuracy.
http://gandersmuzzleloadingblog.blogspot.com/2011/04/hogdon-powder-testing-big-3.html

http://gandersmuzzleloadingblog.blogspot.com/2011/05/hodgdon-powder-testing-big-3-part-2.html

For sabots try www.harvesterbullets.com and look for the 260gr scorpion PT Gold and then head over to www.mmpsabots.com and order some of the black MMP HPH-24 sabots. Aint picking sabots and bullets fun?! LOL.

tsigmon · « **Reply #4 on:** October 02, 2011, 02:44:45 PM »

Thanks for the help Bigblock. Looks like I've got more reading to do. We just got through shooting again and had a very good session. We started with 100 grains of T7 and 245 gr. Aerotip Powerbelts. After each shot the barrel was swabed with a DRY patch for four shots and had a 4 inch group. Finally a group instead of a pattern! We adjusted the scope up 5" and right 3" and started again . Three shots were less than 2" apart , still wiping the bore with a dry patch . We wanted a fourth shot,started to wipe the bore with a dry patch again and down at the "chamber " it got VERY tight . Decided to use a slightly damp patch to clear some of the crud out of the chamber area, reloaded and fired the fourth shot, and dang it was 5" low! Wiped the bore with a dry patch again, fired a 5th shot and it cut one of the first three shots of that series and called it good for the evening . We wiped the bore, dry again, and plan to shoot tomorow on the dry cleaned bore , then start all over cleaning the bore with a moist patch between shots and see what happens.
As of now I am pretty happy with the way the gun is shooting and if we can duplicate the way it shot today, I may try the Shockey's Gold again. We seated the bullet on the Gold with what I thought was adequate firmness but will pay closer attention to how much pressure we apply to try and be consistant. As of now we will stick with the T7.
One last thing. When wiping the bore there was a noticable build up of crud at the chamber area. What is the cause of this? Could it be plastic melting off the base of the bullet from the heat of the T7?

flintlock · « **Reply #5 on:** October 02, 2011, 02:56:20 PM »

A buddy of mine bought one of the stainless steel barrels with the camo thumbhole stocks this year and a Nikon ProStaff scope...I use Goex FFF as that also works in my flintlocks so I keep some around...I started with .430 Hornady 300gr XTPs and the plain green Harvester sabots, using 80grs FFF Goex...This is what I ended up with at 100 yards...Seemed like a good setup to me...Are you sure your scope bases are tight and the screw under the forearm is tight???

I'm not a big fan of either PowerBelts or pellets...Go with loose powder and a good jacketed hollow point bullet between 240-300grs in either .430 or .451 caliber...Start with 80grs of loose powder and work your way up to 100...You'll see the groups open up, then back back down...Also, clean the barrel between each shot...I run 2-3 damp alcohol patches down (both sides) then a dry one...Every third shot or so I add a oiled patch and another dry one...Remember, you are handloading, that's why I don't use pellets...That's also why you need the barrel cleaned between each shot as to continue to shoot while building up fouling will change bullet impact...You want the barrel to be in the same condition each time...

I've used this procedure for over 10 years for various buddies and it's always found a good combination...

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #6 on:** October 02, 2011, 05:02:21 PM »

That crud you are getting is common with triple 7. Use a damp patch and fully clean that area and then dry patch. That crud ring is caused by the filthy powder basically just baking itself onto the steel. Winchester 777 primers may help tame this problem but swabbing between shots with a DAMP patch is extremely important.

emsemt911 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 02, 2011, 06:15:47 PM »

Ia horrible problem sighting in my cva. Now, I learned by trial and error. I was about to through my cva into the Mississippi river untilla gunsmith at the range saw that I what I was doing wrong.

I am shooting 250 gr Barnes tipped sabots with two pellets of 777 mag loads. I would get two good shots then the accuracy would go to HELL! The gunsmith told me to fully clean the barrel after two shots. THe left over residue was not allowing the sabots to seat correctly.

Well, the gun shoots <1 inch grouping at 75 yds. I know the 75 yd is an odd zero, but it marched out great with my Nikon Omega.

DennyRoark · « **Reply #8 on:** October 05, 2011, 03:48:42 AM »

Are you using Borebutter? If so, STOP! Don't even use it for storage! I use a spit patch between each shot, followed by 2 dry patches. Mine isn't a picky eater and will shoot nearly any thing. My best loads are 100gr loose Pyro RS and a 250gr spirepoint bullet. 80gr Pyro and 250gr XTP shoot real well too.Your primers are fine, I've shot W209's for years. Clean that bore between each shot with a damp patch and dry it well, shoot lighter powder charges and work your way up, and find a sabot/bullet that works well for you and you'll get it nailed. I'm right at 100 rounds in a year and a half and have never had a flier.

As for the Bore butter, I had a stainless Omega that shot all over. After around 20 rounds it would settle down and drive tacks. I quit the BB and the problem went away.

My New Optima shot MOA right out of the box. Six round for a 50 yard zero, and I've never looked back...

tsigmon · « **Reply #9 on:** October 05, 2011, 02:29:58 PM »

I may be trying to make this more compicated than it should be but I am going to find out what it takes to get this thing to shoot. I stopped the other day with two 50 gr. pellets of T7, a Winchester muzzel loader 209 primer and a 245 gr. Powerbelt Aerotip bullet. Life has kinda gotten in the way of shooting , it but has given way too much time to figure options. If I ever get time in the daylight to shoot, I will be busy. Supplies I have on hand as of now
1. Traditional FFg black powder
2. Pyrodex 50/50 pellet
3. Triple 7 50/50 pellets
4. Shockeys Gold grandular ( FFg equivelant)
( thank goodness I had all this powder on hand)
5. 245 gr Powerbelrt Aerotip bullets
6. 245 gr. Powerbelt hollow point bullets
7. 295 gr. Powerbelt hollow points
(all these bullets on hand also)
8. 240 gr. Hornady .44 cal (.430 dia) XTP (JHP) with Hornaday sabots for
.429-.430 bullets
9. 250 gr Hornady .45 cal (.452 dia.) XTP (JHP) with T/ C sabots for
.451-.452 bullets
10. Winchester 209 muzzel loader primers
(all this on hand except sabots)
11. 250 gr. Hornady .45 cal (.452 dia) FTX ( flex tip ) bullets
12. Winchester 209 T7 primers
(just bought)

Dang, this about to be overwhelming!!
With 12 different componets how many different combinations do I have that I could possibly shoot (assuming I use 100 gr of each of the loose powders). I really doubt I shoot every possible combination, just courious.

ronlaughlin · « **Reply #10 on:** October 05, 2011, 06:31:19 PM »

Quote from: tsigmon on October 05, 2011, 02:29:58 PM

..................................
With 12 different componets how many different combinations do I have that I could possibly shoot (assuming I use 100 gr of each of the loose powders). I really doubt I shoot every possible combination, just courious.

12!, which is 12 times 11 times 10 times 9 times 8 times 7 times 6 times 5 times 4 times 3 times 2 times 1.

tsigmon · « **Reply #11 on:** October 06, 2011, 04:49:31 AM »

That would be 12 factorial right? Comes out to 479,001,600 times! Holy cow!Don't think I can afford that. I have figured a few loads to try and never really considered trying every combination. It is interesting of all the possibilites to get the best/most accurate load though.

spooked · « **Reply #12 on:** October 06, 2011, 06:50:32 AM »

Quote from: DennyRoark on October 05, 2011, 03:48:42 AM

Are you using Borebutter? If so, STOP! Don't even use it for storage! I use a spit patch between each shot, followed by 2 dry patches. Mine isn't a picky eater and will shoot nearly any thing. My best loads are 100gr loose Pyro RS and a 250gr spirepoint bullet. 80gr Pyro and 250gr XTP shoot real well too.Your primers are fine, I've shot W209's for years. Clean that bore between each shot with a damp patch and dry it well, shoot lighter powder charges and work your way up, and find a sabot/bullet that works well for you and you'll get it nailed. I'm right at 100 rounds in a year and a half and have never had a flier.

As for the Bore butter, I had a stainless Omega that shot all over. After around 20 rounds it would settle down and drive tacks. I quit the BB and the problem went away.

My New Optima shot MOA right out of the box. Six round for a 50 yard zero, and I've never looked back...

Whatcha use fer lube then? For rust prevention?

tsigmon · « **Reply #13 on:** October 08, 2011, 01:37:42 AM »

{« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2011, 06:29:58 PM » I may be trying to make this more compicated than it should be but I am going to find out what it takes to get this thing to shoot.} That is my own quote. It was all brought back into prespective last evening about 30 minutes before sunset. My son took the Optima hunting , killed a 6 point, said it shot fine to him! Guess it isn't as pressing as it once was! thanks for all of the replies and help. Tim

flintlock · « **Reply #14 on:** October 09, 2011, 12:05:11 PM »

I'll make it easy for you...I sight in 5-6 inlines a year for various buddies that simply don't understand how to work up a load or simply don't like to shoot as much as I do...

Take the FF real black powder, the .44 caliber 240gr Hornadys use either of the 209s you want...Now, start with 80grs of powder, cleaning with 3 alcohol patches (both sides) and a dry patch between each shot, shoot 3 shots...Every third shot add an oiled patch then a dry one...

Now do the same with 85, 90 and 95 grs...

I'll bet you will find a group within those charges that will measure 1 1/4 inches or better if you do your part...

DennyRoark · « **Reply #15 on:** October 10, 2011, 05:48:38 AM »

I know the Borebutter statements usually start a storm. Just in my experience....Sabots should be shot with a dry bore. I use a light coat of oil for storage after a thorough cleaning, completely dried before the next use. A damp patch, followed with usually 2 dry patches between shots. I usually take the second dry patch and reuse it as the next damp patch.

flintlock · « **Reply #16 on:** October 10, 2011, 06:29:39 AM »

Bore Butter was developed and came out when we were all still shooting side hammers...It is a lube for conicals and patches when shooting round balls...Frankly in my tests, it doesn't do that well even as a patch lube, there are better lubes out there...

It is not intended or developed for the shallow and faster rifling of inlines...To prevent rust on inlines regular gun oil is better...Saboted bullets do not need to be lubed to work properly...So with inlines leave the Bore Butter out of the bore...

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #17 on:** October 10, 2011, 08:39:26 AM »

Anything is better than bore butter at rust prevention

emsemt911 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 10, 2011, 02:52:47 PM »

I use bore butter without any problems, but I do clean my barrel before shooting with a cleaning patch and bore snake. I use the bore butter for storage.

From the TC website about bore butter:
"Note about Sabots
T/C's All Natural Lube 1000 Plus Bore Butter was designed as a lube to be used with traditional patched roundballs (lube the patches) and all lead conical bullets like our Maxi-Ball and Maxi-Hunters.

If you are shooting sabots, DO NOT LUBE YOUR SABOTS. Sabots are designed to be shot right out of the package____DRY. In fact, you should remove any trace of Natural Lube, or any lube for that matter, from the barrel before shooting sabots. The less lube you have in the barrel when shooting sabots, the better, to achieve optimum accuracy.

When your hunting or shooting is done, and your rifle cleaned after shooting, re-lube your barrel with T/C's All Natural Lube Bore Butter prior to storage. Wipe down the outside as well. It's an excellent rust preventative."

DennyRoark · « **Reply #19 on:** October 11, 2011, 05:03:04 AM »

EMS...hence my earlier reference to my stainless Omega shooting all over then settling down. I used the BB just like T/C said and found it impossible to get it all out before shooting. It would apparently take 15-20 shots to "cook" the rest out, then she would settle down and shoot good. Still use it for Maxi-lube in the old Hawken, but it's a bear to get it ll out at the end of a shoot. It gets caked up with powder residue and we all know what a little spent powder does to the barrel. Not trying to hijack this thread and beat this dead horse, just just offering a suggestion to tsigmon to try it with out if he is using it. A T/C rep at Cabelas in Dundee a few years back told a buddy and me not to use it as it can and will trap moisture under it and cause pitting down the road. That was right at the same time I was putting 2 and 2 together about the erratic groups from the Omega. Never looked back (except I wish I would have kept that rifle!).

emsemt911 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 14, 2011, 05:44:19 PM »

you know, after reading this thread I think i will not use the Bore butter anymore. I just do not want or risk a bad shot or problems in the future. I have not had my Omega long, and have learned by trial and error. Just clean the barrel, then run a swab with a little oil on a patchor storage seems a lot easier and less risky.