Coincidence or 30-30 science?

[wwjmbd]

About 19 years ago my father bought me a used marlin 30-30 with a 4 power bushnell sportsman scope on it, every deer I ever killed was with that rifle, at least 12 that I can think of.

The first few years I used whatever I could find for ammo, whatever was cheapest or whatever was given to me. The fist 6 deer I shot with that rifle I used 170gr flat point winchesters & federals the cheapest ones you could buy, 5 out of the 6 deer dropped in a heap on the spot and one I had to track about 30 yards. All the shots were less than 100 yards and all deer were sucessfully recovered. All 6 deer were shot behind the front shoulder and all were complete pass throughs.

After that I started shooting more and learning a little more about ballistics, I found that the 150gr factory loads from winchester, federal, and remington would all group slightly better than the 170 grain factory loads I had been using all along so I gave up the 170 grainers in favor of the 150s. I figured in the 30-30 giving up 20 grains of bullet weight for an added 100fps or more would be well worth it since the velocity is quite low to begin with and the trajectory would be a little better.

Out of the next 5 deer I shot, only 1 droped right there and the other 4 I tracked and recovered, most within 30 yards or so and 1 about 75 yards. All the bullets were complete pass throughs and all were shot behind the front shoulder broadside. These were also the cheapest factory loads on the market that I could get.

Those 11 deer were all pretty much shot in the same place at the same ranges, the 170s and 150s all did their job and killed fine but I always wondered if it was a coincidence that the 170s seemed to flatten the deer right there and kill quicker or not. The exits on the 170s seemed to be larger than the 150s, the 150s seemed to have pretty much the same size entrance and exit holes.

Anyone have similar experiances with the 30-30?

[wwjmbd]

The last one I shot with that rifle was actually with a 160 grain hornady lever evolution factory load. It was a poorly placed shot at only 30 yards. I hit him in the front shoulder at a sharp downward angle. The deer went down in a heap didnt even flinch. I waited about 30 seconds or so and the deer apeared stone dead and since darkness was coming fast I didnt wait any longer and lowered the rifle to the ground on my rope and then began climbing down out of the tree stand. about halfway down he jumped up and ran away. Frustrated at the thought of tracking the deer all night, I decided to run to the top of a nearby ridge where I would have a chance at spotting him crossing the low ground ahead. Luckily it worked and I was presented another shot, he was on the move quickly and I tried a shot at him on the run at about 90 yards, aiming behind the front shoulder. That one anchored him to the ground. When I got to him he was stone dead and the shoulder I hit him in looked like a hand grenade went off just inside the skin, there was no exit from the first shot. The second shot hit behind the front shoulder a little further back than I wanted and it struck a rib on the way in, that bullet did not exit either.

That was the only deer I ever shot that took more than 1 shot to kill, and the only one that the bullet didnt pass completely through.

Those cartriges had noticably more recoil than any of the other 30-30 cartridges I ever fired, I dont have a cronograph so I dont know the velocity. The groups were among the worst ive had from that rifle with all the ammo Ive shot from it. All I have ever heard about the lever evolution has been good, but I wasent that impressed. I guess I cannot blame the bullets for the poor shot placement on the shoulder shot but I thought the second shot should have punched through. I didnt recover either bullet only fragments.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive shot alot of deer with 170 and 150 corelocks and 150 win silvertips. My old man swore by those silvertips. For the most part i stuck with 170s figuring the differnce in trajectory was so minor it wasnt worth discussing and they decked everything i shot with them. I guess too i liked the idea of the extra 20 grains of weight if bear came along. But bottom line is i cant really say there was any difference in killing power between the 3. It mostly comes down to what shoots best in your gun and the win 94s can be ammo finiky. marlins not so much. By the way i have a 24 in 336 adl that was dads before he switched to a 308 blr and that gun will shoot silvertips into less then an inch for 5 shots at a 100 yards with a scope. YES he had that gun drilled and tapped. I told him every time i look at it i want to kick him in the @@@ but i guess that back in the 60s when he did it it made sense as he was looking for a hunting gun not a collector.

[LanceR]

Look towards the bottom of this page:

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/mechanics.html

The whole treatise is quite a few pages and information dense but the bottom line is that for creating a big permanent wound cavity a flat nosed bullet that is heavy for caliber make a bigger temporary cavity, a bigger permanent cavity than a lighter or pointier bullet. 

Faster speeds actually often result in smaller cavities and less penetration.  Bullets like the Nosler Partition and Barnes TSX that rapidly expand to present wide flat noses but retain their weight to help with deep penetration often give you the best of both slippery bullet shapes and big wound cavities.

If you are really interested in terminal ballistics then read all of the pages but there is so much info there you might want to break it up over several days.  All the research and data can be somewhat overwhelming.

Lance

[Dee]

I started shooting my Winchester Model 94 in 1958 when Dad bought it new. First box of ammo was 170 grain flat noses. Then 150s, and mostly what I could find. In 1971 I started reloading for it, and tried everything from 110 grainers to 170 grain gas check cast. I finally settled on the 150 grain round nose at 2400fps, around 1973, and have never switched since. It will take anything on the North American continent I suppose. From 400# feral boars, to a 70# yearling doe.

[wwjmbd]

Look towards the bottom of this page:

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/mechanics.html


Thanks for the info

[wwjmbd]

I started shooting my Winchester Model 94 in 1958 when Dad bought it new. First box of ammo was 170 grain flat noses. Then 150s, and mostly what I could find. In 1971 I started reloading for it, and tried everything from 110 grainers to 170 grain gas check cast. I finally settled on the 150 grain round nose at 2400fps, around 1973, and have never switched since. It will take anything on the North American continent I suppose. From 400# feral boars, to a 70# yearling doe.

 Did the 150s provide quicker kills than the 170s or was there no difference? or were they more accurate?

[Lloyd Smale]

one of the big advantage to the 3030 is the bullets used in it. Just about every other caliber of ammo share bullets with other cases. Like say the 308 and the 06 and the 300 mags. Federal or rem will use the same 150 grain bullet in all of them and you sure arent going to get the same performance out of a 308 and 300 mag using the same bullet. Its one of the reasons i preach that 180s in an 06 are a no no. Ive tracked more deer shot with that combo then any other. The manufactures all know that 180s will be used more in the mags then anywhere so they construct them a bit heavier to take the velocitys and knowing there going to be used on bigger game. the 3030 though needs flat nosed bullets so they are made just for the 3030 and are made to expand at lower velocitys. that is the main reason the 3030 puts down deer way out of proportion to its size and ballistics. Thing is most all the 3030 bullets used by all the manufactures are made like this and they all work great. Its almost tough to buy factory 3030 ammo that doesnt work well. Ive shot game with both 170s and 150s, mostly corelocks and found that theres not enough differnce in how quickly then kill to even notice. What i do notice is especially with winchesters and somewhat with marlins that 3030s can be finiky and each gun will show a prefernce for differnt ammo even more then most other calibers and guns. thats why a recomend you buy a few differnt kinds and see which shoots best and go with that. Your not going to get any big ballistics advantage or killing power advantage using any of them. Thats why its about the only time youll see me use factory ammo in the field. Its hard to beat factory corelock or for that matter any factory ammo for a 3030 for effectiveness even when handloading and you can buy corelocks for the 3030 for about the same price you can buy brass. I just save the brass for cast  bullet plinking loads and hunt with the factory stuff.

[Dee]

I started shooting my Winchester Model 94 in 1958 when Dad bought it new. First box of ammo was 170 grain flat noses. Then 150s, and mostly what I could find. In 1971 I started reloading for it, and tried everything from 110 grainers to 170 grain gas check cast. I finally settled on the 150 grain round nose at 2400fps, around 1973, and have never switched since. It will take anything on the North American continent I suppose. From 400# feral boars, to a 70# yearling doe.

 Did the 150s provide quicker kills than the 170s or was there no difference? or were they more accurate?

It really doesn't take much to punch thru the ribbs of a deer, or an elk for that matter. Once the heart and lungs quit working, it really doesn't matter what weight the bullet was. The 150s for me worked as well as any, had more velocity for added range, and didn't quite kick as hard.

[spruce]

I've always used 170's in my M94.  Never shot a deer that didn't die in a very short time.  I'm sure if I'd used 150's I would be able to say the same thing.
My M94 is also a little finicky - it does best with WW Power Points, followed closely by WW Silvertips.  It doesn't like Core-Lokt's - too bad because it's an excellent bullet and is the brand usually on sale!
Sam Fadala, probably the most prolific writer on the .30-30, preferred 150 grain loads.  However, I think most of his hunting was out west where longer shots are the norm so the slightly flatter trajectory was probably a worthwhile advantage. 

[Dave in WV]

wwjmbd, the leverlution ammo will kick harder due to the higher velocity it produces. I've been told by a credible source the FTX bullets used in the leverlution ammo are on the fragile side.

[greenrivers]

Loyd, you are absolutely right. I shot many deer with a M94 Winchester and when cutting up the meat would turn 3 to 5 lbs. of it into dog food because of damage. When I finally went to the 06 during the mid seventies, the 180 and 220 grain bullets were the "only" way to go. I found myself tracking deer and when finally cutting them up, throwing out only about a pound or less. After switching to the bullet the rifle was designed for things changed dramaticly. We are lucky today to have bullets designed to expand reliably at designated speed. Not so back then.