Author Topic: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG  (Read 2004 times)

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Offline vacek

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Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« on: December 30, 2011, 05:18:42 PM »
Back when I was a kid (50's - 60's) I would here the men talking about hunting with military surplus ammo that they had clipped off the ends so they would expand. This seemed to be pretty common practice especially with the imported calibers.
 
More than once I have heard a guy saying his first high power rifle was a 303 Brit pulled from a big barrel which he then cleaned up; then hunted with the surplus (after clipping). Understanding that we have a lot better choices; but in a situation where FMJ surplus was ones only choice what are the chances of improving the lethality of the FMF versus it just flying apart versus reasonable expansion and penetration?
 
I guess it could be improved by reducing the powder somewhat to minimize the converted bullet coming apart at the traditional velocity, but am wondering if anyone has had experience with this or any stories they have heard.

Offline bilmac

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Re: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2011, 06:20:18 PM »
You don't want to do that. If you look at a FMJ bullet you will see that the base is open, that's how they got the lead in the jacket, from the base. If you cut the tip, what you've got is a piece of tube with lead in it. Maybe the lead will stay in there when the powder goes off, the front ogive may be strong enough to keep the lead where it belongs. But if it isn't, the lead will wobble on out the bore leaving the jacket behind. Good chance that jacket is gonna be stuck somewhere in the barrel and you'll never know it's there until you shoot the next bullet. Then you will ruin a rifle barrel if you're lucky, but it could be worse than that.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2011, 03:55:43 AM »
My last year in the playground of the orient I had a number of weapons other then those issued to me.  One was an M1D sans scope, another was a M-97 Riot Gun.
 
Now I tell ya, that southeast asian place is a hunter's paradise.  And it had been a while since I had hunted anything but people...  :-\  So, on occasion i would order out my long suffering RTO, GOD love you Wesley!,  :D  and venture outside the wire for a little hunting trip.  The M1 was my hunting rifle and the M97 slung over my back as my bird gun.   ;D
 
I had also heard of cutting the nose off FMJ bullets to use them for hunting so the clip in the M1 was full of just so altered rounds.  The biggest animal to fall to one was a deer much like the European Roe Deer.  As well as I can remember, it has been a while, the deer was about 30 yards away, took the round behind the shoulder on a broadside shot, ran about 30 yards and fell.   8)
 
Ya know, I got a picture somewhere's of that deer, rifle and me but no tellin where it is.  I do have a picture of me and the rifle though!   :D
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Offline vacek

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Re: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2011, 11:18:48 AM »
Thanks guys,
 
I do understand and agree with Bilmacs logic and have thought of that myself.  At the same point I know it was fairly common practice and was wondering just how "common" it was.    All of us old boys remember the army surplus stores full of the old Mauser, SMLE's, and such and all of the ammo that came with it at a cheap cost.  t seemed that as son as a youn man could he went and bought something, got the ammo and took off hunting. 

Offline blind ear

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Re: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2011, 02:42:41 PM »
I have seen jigs for sale for cutting and drilling rounds before. Haven't searched it recently. ear
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Offline P38

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Re: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2011, 10:14:18 PM »
I made such a jig for my old man in the early 80's.
 
The jig I made was a drill jig that fitted a 303 brittish cartridge and allowed a 1/8' hole to be drilled 1/4' deep into the tip of the projectile effectively turing the ex army ammo into hollow point hunting rounds.
 
The old man and his mates used these hollow point 303 rounds on eveything Goats, Pigs, Deer etc.
 
They were very effective killers and mushroomed nicely sometimes.
I never heard of any mishaps with the lead extruding and leaving the jacket in the barrell during firing.
 
In NZ ex army 303 ammo and Brittish service rifles, Enfeilds SMLE's etc, were in plentiful supply and very very cheap and avalible right into the 70's and 80's.
 
Almost everyone who hunted in NZ during the post war years and on through to today has used a service rifle and ex army ammo at one time or another.
 
Back then Imported hunting rifles were very expensive and beyound most hunters budgets in comparrison.
 
Cheers
Pete
 

Offline Victor3

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Re: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2011, 11:42:21 PM »
I never heard of any mishaps with the lead extruding and leaving the jacket in the barrell during firing.

 I wouldn't expect it to, seeing as how you were only drilling a small hole in the nose. Filing a larger diameter flat might though. I wouldn't do it unless it were on bullets having a jacket that covered the base.
 
 I'd probably just use military FMJ ammo as is if it were all I had available. My Dad told me that's all he and his buddies hunted with (30.06) for some years after he returned from WWII.
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Offline vacek

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Re: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2012, 08:33:50 AM »
So this might be something we ought to be looking at.  No doubt there is a lot of East Bloc FMJ floating out there with all the Mosins and such being sold the last 20 some years with the ammo.  While the 303 Brit is getting scarce I know I have at least 1000 rounds of it.  Anyone have a pic or example of the jig?

Offline reliquary

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Re: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2012, 04:57:54 PM »
Back in the early '60s I was given a Carcano 6.5 that a cousin brought home from Italy and a dozen or so clips of the roundnosed FMJ cartridges.
 
Planning to use it for hunting, I hacksawed some of the bullet tips flat (to the lead core), and hacksawed "X"es into the tips of others.  My testing was done by firing a few of each into about an 8" diameter sapling.  According to the exit holes, none of the mods caused them to expand., because the FMJ exit holes were (as far as the eye could tell) the same size.
 
So I figured that if the ball ammo worked on people, it would work on deer.  About that time, Carcanos acquired a bad rep and I passed it on to someone else without ever hunting with it.  Later, I heard the stories about the pressure extruding the lead from the jacket but it didn't happen in the few rounds I fired. 
 
Never thought about drilling a HP; we were using "brace and bits" back then.

Offline vacek

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Re: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2012, 05:42:02 PM »
It appears that this practice to some extent was common.  Given some time I think I will do some expermentation with my 303 Brit, 7.62X54 ,7.62X39 and some 6.5X55.  303 Brit will be first.

Offline Pat/Rick

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Re: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2012, 06:58:51 AM »
Check that 7.62x54r with a magnet before cutting. Alot of it is steel cored.  I have never cut a fmj to use for hunting, but I would expect a steel core to seperate faster (more likely than) a lead cored FMJ.
 
Might be safer just to pull bullets and replace them w/ SP. Bear in mind that some x54r is a compressed charge. Be safe!
 
 
AtlLaw, Interesting pic! Did you guys find a weapons cache when that was taken? I ask because there is a variety of arms in the photo.  Oh BTW, welcome home!

Offline Rex in OTZ

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Re: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2012, 10:40:15 AM »
I live in NW Alaska, around 1992 the border between Russia and US opend up and we got to mix it up with the Russkies from Chukotka, some natives boated in from the Buhta area, and I learned of Tipping 7.62x54R from a old Pilot from Anyader (Nikoli Selbekov) who was working for the same Avaition company I was (Baker Avaiation-Kotzebue/Nome Alaska) said the govt shecked out arms/ammo for hunting purposes that hunters would file the tip of ammo, The natives related mainly through pantomime and drawing that to hunt Walrus the Govt issed each boat a single rifle (SVT-40 straight pull rifle) and 5 rounds of fmj ammo, they all reported that one had to bring back the empty cartridge casings and check in the rifle when done.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2012, 11:02:58 AM »
welcome home!

Thanks!  I really appreciate it!  ;)
 
Quote
Interesting pic! Did you guys find a weapons cache when that was taken?

Naw... there were all kinds of weapons laying around over there.  The fellows in the picture were two of my unit's pilots.  Pilots were issued .38 Spl. revolvers but I tried to make sure they had rifles, AK's unless they could get something else, and had them practice.
 
That steel core issue is a good point!  Of course the Garand ammo was lead core, but I would think there would be NO benefit from clipping the tip off a steel core bullet...  :-\   Well wait, it would give it a bigger meplat and then it shouldn't act much different then a FN hard cast bullet when it hits something...right?  ???
 
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Offline vacek

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Re: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2012, 03:20:44 PM »
Some great feedback.  My thought was based on how to make the best of what you have, if you only had old surplus ammo.  Lot of good info here.  AtLaw, thank you for your service.

Offline gstewart44

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Re: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2012, 04:11:40 PM »
I scored a cache of about 1200 .303 Brit Mk Vll rounds in sealed boxes about ten years ago.   The stuff had corrosive primers and 1 out of 4 rounds was a dud.    I pulled all the Mk Vll bullets and got rid of the cordite filled casings.     I tried shaving the ends of the bullets but it did not help expansion any.   
So I loaded up the Mk Vll bullets in my Remington brass and went to harvest some pork.    After shooting the first one I knew very well why they described the 303 British round a very deadly killer.....    It seems the Mk Vll bullet has a lightweight aluminum, compressed paper or wooden plug in the forward 1/3 under the jacket.   This makes the bullet butt-heavy ...... and when that spitzer hits something solid the lightweight front wants to slow down while inertia carries the butt end forward tumbling the heck out of the bullet, and opening up a rather large wound path.   
It makes very large exit holes in hog ribs and turns shoulders into jelly around the wound.   Feral swine are fair game year round for me and they do succumb quite rapidly when hit with the grand old .303 service round.   
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Offline vacek

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Re: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2012, 03:59:04 AM »
Gstewart,
 
I have often read about the 303 Brit tumbling, including some original info dating prior to WW1 but never direct info.  Really good info.

Offline bilmac

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Re: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2012, 05:34:54 AM »
Isn't that the reason the old model M16's had a 1 in 12 twist. It caused the bullet to be marginally stable, causing it to tumble on impact. In the Miami FBI shootout the bad guy was shooting a Mini 14 which had a 1in 9 twist which made a very stable bullet. He shot lots of people that day, but I don't think anyone died.

Offline Pat/Rick

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Re: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2012, 09:47:41 AM »
AtlLaw, it would definently give a bigger meplat. Still with steel cored ammo like most 7.62x54r seems to be, I would not want to extend the cut/file past the ogive, seems to me that, that is where most sepearation would be with nothing to hold the core in. Great idea making sure the pilots had long guns as well.
 
Hit a deer once with a Datsun car once. Big meplats really do figure into the equation! :o Might not have been going fast enough though. Penetration was pretty much non existant!  :o :o   ;D
 
SVT-40's for seal!! Have never fired any of the SVT's. Being semi auto, I would hate to have a case eject overboard taking into the ammo accountability in Russia. I have used my Mosins for hunting blacktail deer with Wichester metric (S&B), SP's and am pretty impressed with the cartridge performance and its history.
 
I understand that it is legal for the AK natives to hunt with FMJ, and head shots are the norm on caribou and other game when using such.
 
Good shooting/hunting all!

Offline gstewart44

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Re: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2012, 11:58:53 AM »

Hit a deer once with a Datsun car once. Big meplats really do figure into the equation! :o Might not have been going fast enough though. Penetration was pretty much non existant!  :o :o   ;D 
 
Hmmm lets see ifn I can still cipher some  :-\  .....I used to have an old Datsun 510....at 2100 lbs, 60 mph,   that figgers out to be about 14,700,000 grains at 88fps  ???   .......yields 252,746 ft/lbs of energy  :o   .....  can you say "Blunt Force Trauma"?   bet that deer was tenderized.... ;D
I'm just tryin' to keep everything in balance, Woodrow. You do more work than you got to, so it's my obligation to do less. (Gus McCrae)

Offline gstewart44

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Re: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2012, 12:04:36 PM »
Gstewart,
 
I have often read about the 303 Brit tumbling, including some original info dating prior to WW1 but never direct info.  Really good info.
Vacek - my experience has only been with the Mk VII bullet and indeed it will upset upon entering a pig.   However the the earlier MkII,III, and IV 215 grain /.303 Brit rounds were straight line penetrators - the Mk III and IV had expanding tips though.   The irony of the Hague accords is the British did away with their "expanding bullets" and created a far more deadly round with the Mk VII.
I'm just tryin' to keep everything in balance, Woodrow. You do more work than you got to, so it's my obligation to do less. (Gus McCrae)

Offline smokehouserex

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Re: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2012, 12:43:33 PM »
 
 
  Hello All:
  When I was a pre teen I had filed the tip flat on a 45ACP and made a + mark on it. My older brother told me this was illegal, he called it a dum dum bullet and they were not allowed to do it when he was a soldier. I guess it was a Geneva Convention Rule, maybe???
  We used to shoot jacks in the desert of California with everything we could think of, I dont remember any major difference with FMJ's and flat ones, once a jack shot with a FMJ blew apart completely, head flew up and the body was shoestringed, no explanation why, sooooo????
  HM

Offline tacklebury

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Re: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2012, 01:24:29 PM »
I've used a fine drill point (like an acetylene tip drill) to make HP's out of lead core ones.  It's a fine hole and doesn't start to expand until it strikes an object.  The taper on the ogive of most bullets wouldn't let the core push out separately anyway.  Steel cores simply aren't going to be "good" performing hunting bullets, but as always, if you put it in the right spot (like behind the ear) of most animals it'll die straight away.  ;)
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Offline vacek

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Re: Filing / cutting the tips off of military surplus FMG
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2012, 02:56:08 PM »
You guys are a cornucopia of information.  I have little doubt our freedom will ever die with people like you around.
 
Here is some information from Wikipedia.
 
Expanding bullets were given the name Dum-dum, or dumdum, after an early British example produced in the Dum Dum Arsenal, near Calcutta, India by Captain Neville Bertie-Clay.[1][2] There were several expanding bullets produced by this arsenal for the .303 British cartridge, including soft point and hollow point designs. These were not the first expanding bullets, however; hollow point expanding bullets were commonly used for hunting thin skinned game in express rifles as early as the mid-1870s.[3] The use of the term "Dum-dum", applied to expanding bullets other than the early .303 designs, is considered slang by some.[4] Manufacturers have many terms to describe the particular construction of the various types of expanding bullets, though most fall into the category of soft point or hollow point designs.
Soon after the introduction of smokeless powder to firearms, full metal jacket bullets were introduced to prevent lead fouling in the bore caused by the higher pressures and velocities when used with soft lead bullets.[8] However, it was soon noticed that such small caliber rounds were less effective at wounding or killing an enemy than the older large caliber soft leadbullets. Within the British Indian Army, the Dum Dum arsenal produced its now infamous solution—the jacketing was removed from the nose of the bullet, creating the first soft point bullets. Since the Mark II jacket did not cover the base of the round this could potentially lead to the jacketing being left in the barrel. This potential problem resulted in the rejection of the Dum-dum design and led to independent development of the Mark III, Mark IV (1897) and Mark V (1899) .303 British rounds, which were of the hollow point design, with the jacket covering the base; while these were made in Britain, not at the Dum-Dum arsenal, the name "Dum-dum" had already become associated with expanding bullets, and continued to be used to refer to any expanding bullets. The expanding bullets expanded upon impact to a diameter significantly greater than the original .312 inch (7.92 mm) bullet diameter, producing larger diameter wounds than the full metal jacketed versions. The Mark IV was successful enough in its first use at Omdurman that British soldiers issued with the standard Mark II bullets began to remove the top of the jacket, converting the Mark II bullets into improvised Dum-dum types.[9]
In 1898, the German government lodged a protest against the use of the Mark IV bullet, claiming the wounds produced by the Mark IV were excessive and inhumane, thus violating the laws of war. The protest, however, was based on the comparison of the wounds produced by expanding and non-expanding bullets from high velocity sporting rifles, rather than a comparison of the expanding .303 British bullets with the previous, large bore service cartridge it replaced, the .577/450 Martini-Henry.[10] Because the energy was roughly the same, the wounds caused by the expanding bullet of the .303 were less severe than the those caused by the larger caliber, solid lead bullet used by the Martini-Henry.[11]
The German protests were effective, however, resulting in the ban of the use of expanding bullets in warfare. The British replaced the hollow point bullets with new full metal jacket bullets, and used the remaining stocks of expanding bullets for practice.[12]
During the Hague Convention of 1899, the British delegation attempted to justify the use of the dumdum bullet by pointing to its utility when putting down colonial unrest. Barbara Tuchman writes that, "Developed by the British to stop the rush of fanatical tribesman, the bullets were vigorously defended by Sir John Ardagh against the heated attack of all except the American military delegate, Captain Crozier, whose country was about to make use of them in the Philippines. In warfare against savages, Ardagh explained to an absorbed audience, "men penetrated through and through several times by our latest pattern of small calibre projectiles, which make a small clean holes," were nevertheless able to rush on and come to close quarters. Some means had to be found to stop them. "The civilized soldier when shot recognizes that he is wounded and knows that the sooner he is attended to the sooner he will recover. He lies down on his stretcher and is taken off the field to his ambulance, where he is dressed or bandaged. Your fanatical barbarian, similarly wounded, continues to rush on, spear or sword in hand; and before you have the time to represent to him that his conduct is in flagrant violation of the understanding relative to the proper course for the wounded man to follow - he may have cut off your head."[13] However, the rest of the delegates at the Hague Convention 1899 did not accept this justification and voted 22-2 to prohibit the future use of the dumdum bullet.