Brakes and pistols

[quicksdraw45]

Just curious as to at what point most feel the need for a brake or muzzle tamer ?  
I am considering on of the folowing
45-70 ,375jdj or the 445 super mag
I would think the 45-70 would be at its best in a least 14 inch barrel , How about the other 375jdj or the 445 super mag?

[Ladobe]

Depends on your tolerance for recoil and torque I guess.   I've shot both the 45-70 and 375JDJ unbraked quite a bit - no experience with the 45SM though.   For me they are manageable, especially with Pachy Decelerator grips, but then I love the true handcannons and have shot them a bunch (even got to shoot the first 10" Encore 416 Rigby).  I figured it out once for my first unbraked 375JDJ and on the Contender with full house 300 grain loads it had something like 44-45 foot pounds of recoil.    Current 357JDJ's are braked (SSK Arrestor and 4-port Mag-Na-Port), and are pussycats to me.   The SSK brake does the better job of the two FWIW.   Got no 45-70's anymore, but never had one that was braked when I did.    Don't know if any of this jibberish helps.....

Larry

[444encore]

It all depend's on what the main purpose of the barrel is. I have a Muzzle Tamer on my .444 Marlin barrel. It really makes it managable at the range , which is where it get's the most workout. Ofcourse only for me. For some reason people set up on either side of me usually pack up and move somewhere else after a few rounds go off and blow their hair out of place. But this thing really sucks in the woods. Them 10 -3/16" ports directing muzzle blast back at your ears ain't to polite unless you've got plugs in.

[rickyp]

some will tell you you are a wimp if you get a break and that are not needed. I will tell you they do what they are designed to do. I have one on my 375 jdj  and i get no muzzle jump at all, it just pushed straight back in my hand  They are no more noisy then any other barrel it is just the way you hear the muzzle blast that makes people think they are louder then non ported barrels the break send the noise back to the shooters instead of at the target.

as for when you need one: I once had a 10 inch 22 mag that every time it went off it would jump straight up in the air and I couldn't hit anything with it. I was really considering putting a break on it just to keep the muzzle climb down but traded it off and yes I did and do have a lot bigger barrels. you should put one on any barrel you feel the need to.

[444encore]

Ricky??  :?
  I'm concerned about your post. It seem's to me that it could be a bit confusing or "heaven forbid" misleading. Yes muzzle breaks do make a gun louder,,,,,,,,,to the shooter. Perceived noise is the only noise that matters to the shooter. A paper target don't care if it's louder or not, nor does a live target. They're gonna hear the noise regardless. It's the shooter who need's to hear less noise and muzzle breaks don't help in this scope. Ok that said,,,as for your .22 mag.....I'm sorry, I just can't imagine a .22 anything jumping strait up in the air, even with no one holding it. Furthermore, perceived recoil happens after the bullet has left the barrel. If you can't hit anything with it, something is wrong with the gun or the operator. Recoil is not going to change the path of the bullet unless the shooter is anticipating the shot and pull's it. My mother in-law has artheritis in her hands and can fire my .22-250 with no trouble.
 Ricky , I'm not calling you a wimp, I'm just calling you out.

[rickyp]

I am going on what lots of people say " them guns with a muzzle break is a lot more loud then a normal gun" yes you do perceived the noise differently with a break and that is why people think they are louder. I have had and shot numerous guns with breaks and have never had trouble with the "Perceived noise" I personally feel in some cases that the benefits out way the "Perceived noise"

as for the 10 inch 22 mag, it was most defiantly not the shooter ( on this barrel anyway). I would put this barrel on the frame and shoot 50 rounds and not be able to hit the target ( it has a t/c 2-7 scope on it) I could not keep a group inside 6 inches at 50 yards, but then I would put my 375 jdj on the same frame i was able to hit a 4"x4" target at 100 yards almost every time.  

if too much gas gets past the bullet as it traveled down the barrel it can  cause the muzzle to raise with the bullet still in the tube. this was the worst barrel I have ever had

[444encore]

if too much gas gets past the bullet as it traveled down the barrel it can cause the muzzle to raise with the bullet still in the tube. this was the worst barrel I have ever had

As I mentioned, "either the gun or the operator"
  If you've ever fired blank cartridges Ricky, you'll note that there is no muzzle rise or recoil. Gas alone cannot cause this, only the excelleration of one solid object moving away from another. So I must denounce your statement that gas cutting can cause recoil before bullet exit. I do realize that hot gasses exiting a jet or rocket engine can create quite a bit of thrust. But these engines operate at a constant to generate this thrust. While the micron of a second that powder gasses within a barrel are expanding is far from sufficient to generate substantial thrust to cause recoil.

[onesonek]

I made the mistake of firing a braked gun with out hearing protection, actually fired 3 rounds ( not smart enough to quit, when one sorta hurt the ears) Perceived or not, a braked gun without protection can seriously damage the ears nerve system, long before a non-braked gun. And it's is perceived more. Alot of that noise is a " shock wave" and comming back at you not away. I can only add, that with permanent ring, my ears will never be the same. I use a brake in some situations, but only with protection. TRUST ME!!! oops, sorry for the yelling, sometimes can't hear my typing

[HHI-7420]

444encore, one Ky. boy to another- if recoil doesn't affect the path of a bullit, then why does a 300gr. 44cal. bullit hit higher that a 240gr. bullit that is sighted in at say 25yds.? After all, it is going slower and is heavier. Just for laughs.  Pat

[444encore]

Hmmm, Quite a brain tickler there Pat :?
This could get complicated to answer and take me all night to type.
First I must say that I've never sighted in a gun for 25 yards  because I can see that far without a scope. Secondly you didn't mention how much higher.
   If you do this same test sighted in at say 100yds is the bullet still hitting high? Ok, maybe the 300 gr. bullet is initially slower than the 240, but at 100 yds it has lost less velocity than the lighter bullet due to greater kinetic energy. I don't have any exact figures on this but is very possible that the 300 gr will reach a 100 yd target traveling at the same velocity as the 240 gr . But I don't have a clue if it will get there at the same time.
I don't have the equipment to measure this. :cry:
But seein how my 300 gr loads hit lower at 100 yds than my 240 gr do, I can only assume that the 240 got a head start.
   Now back to that 25 yd thing. Assuming that your scope's cross hairs are sitting between  1 to 2 inches above the centerline of your bore, sighting in at 25 yds is going to put quite an upward slope on your barrel to reach paralax free shooting. This in itself I know will cause a heavier bullet to shoot higher at greater ranges, but since I've never shot a scoped anything at 25 yds I can't quote on this. Shooting a bullet at anything other than right angles to the force of gravity will change the ballistics dramatically as the bullet's kenetic energy is now to some extent working either against or with the forces of gravity depending on angle out of 90 degrees from gravitational forces. Wether any of this will change the ballistics at 25 yds from a 240 to 300 gr bullet, I don't know, but it's possible.
   From another view, if you consider the difference between a breaked versus non-breaked gun  "which is how this string started to begin with"
fealt recoil has nothing to with accuracy on a mechanical level since the bullet has left the rifling before the diverted gasses take effect, but this same theory wouldn't be true of a ported barrel as the the recoil of the bullet moving in the barrel would be offset by the diverted gasses before the bullet left the rifling causing the barrel to jerk up and then back down before the bullet left the barrel which would cause severe problems with accuracy. Just ask Larry Kelly if his mag-na-ported barrels are less accurate than others :shock:
   Fact is I don't have a high speed camera to see if a barrel raises before the bullet left it, but common sense can tell me that a 3 to 5 pound pistol will not accelerate at the same rate as a 240 to 300 gr bullet will in an atmosphere and chances are the bullet has left the barrel before you feel the recoil.  OK, I've been writing and drinking for quite a while now , so if any of this doesn't make sense, it's either I've had too much scotch or you've fallin asleep reading this.    Just my opinion

[jamie]

444encore,
I have to agree with HHI on that I have noticed this with several large slow moving rounds.  In my 15" 45-70 the heavier bullets hit higher and with my buddies 44 mag.  I would imagine that with the small and midbore calibers it would be opposite because the bullet is actually traveling fast enough to get out of the barrel before recoil cause it to rise.  Nope, I can't explain it, just saw it happen and then kept a mental note of it.  Last time at the range my buddy was trying different loads and ask how I thought the 300 grners would should compared to the 240's.  I told them they will probably go 2-3"s higher.  He argued until he shot one and it was 3"s higher.  

Like I said, I can't explain it and don't want to argue, but I have seen it alot.

You are right about accuracy, my 15" braked -06 will shoot sub 1" 5 shot groups.  They may not help accuracy but they certainly don't hurt it either.

[buckenbass]

Ok my thoughts  I had a 15" 270 from Fox Ridge that i bought for hunting well the muzzel tamer that i had them put on made this barrel not good for hunting too loud to hunt with   and when shooting on a bench it would blow things off the bench....    My next barrel that had a brake was my 12" 500S&W VVA this barrel can be shot with no hearing protection in a hunting type setting and has as much recoil as a 44mag ..

So the you might want to ask  what the best style of break? and who puts it on?

[bowfishn]

All handguns are affected by recoil or muzzle jump.(the recoil that is caused by the equal and opposite reaction to moving the bullet down the barrel) The less recoil or jump of course the less of its affect. Speed of the bullet vs muzzle jump is also going to have an affect on the bullet impact as well as the length of the barrel, because the longer the bullet is in the barrel the greater the affect on bullet impact. That is one of the reasons why heavy barrels tend to give more consistent impact on a target.
I first noticed this affect  when shooting really hot loads with my 44mag 10.5 inch barrel revolver, after sighting it in for zero at 100 yards i shot some low powered loads that should of hit lower on the target, but instead were over 10" high. I thought this can't be, until i realized that the slower moving bullet exited the barrel just enough slower that the muzzle jump even though it wasn't as great had more time to change impact.
The affect of muzzle jump is so important that you are told to always hold the hand gun with the same grip so as not to change muzzle jump from shot to shot. This is differant with differant style handguns or grips.
As far as muzzle jump being reduced by a muzzle brake, the main thing that a muzzle brake does is affect the muzzle jump at about the point just before the bullet has left the barrel,(and this is done by allowing the gases to escape from above and sometime also the sides of the barrel instead of as much out the end, think of it like a balloon, before the bullet leaves the barrel the preasures are almost equal from all sides and once the bullet leaves the barrel the open end creates an almost zero preasure at that end and maximum preasure at the opposite end causing all the recoil to be pushed back and up. When the gases escape some from the top you are eliminating this last part and puting some of the zero preasure at the top of the barrel causing it to try and move in the opposite direction or hold it down. A muzzle brake does nothing to stop the fist affect from moving the bullet down the barrel.)  so it's perceived affect would be minimal.
This is just a general explaination for recoil or muzzle jump.