45-70 load simplified / advice

[Badge54]

Is it possible to condense (simplify) some of the information for me...  ?  I have been reading all over this site for info regarding 45-70 loads.  I have a off the shelf Handi.  It has not been throat-ed.  And I am already loading for it. I have Speer 350gr HOT-COR HCFN (.458),that's what was available.  The brass available is Black Hills 'once fired' and Starline.  I have a few questions. I have the recent Lyman reloading handbook 49th edition to work from and then all of the information I could gain from the internet sources. Not being Married to 4198 either I have a supply of 3031 for my 30-30AI I load for...


Here is what I have done so far but I am tentative about it not understanding some of the details / I am of the type of reloader that experiments with recipes.... Based on a recipe on the Hodgdon site I loaded H4198 50.5 grains and seated the bullet to the crimp groove.  This resulted in not being able to chamber it. So I went back through the site and found the info regarding the throat job necessary to load bigger bullets. I had to seat it considerably shorter to close the action but still not as short as the COL listed. I also noticed it says "modern rifles" but then only for Ruger No1... Now I'm not sure if these are safe... Too much info for me to decipher. 


QUESTION #1 Is it ok to seat this bullet down deep enough past the crimp groove with 50.5g of 4198?


QUESTION #2 Should I be crimping at all?


QUESTION #3 What are your pet loads specifics.  Bullet, powder, crimp or not, COL for a non- throated Handi?


QUESTION #4 What are the safe load levels for the Handi?  trapdoor, modern or Ruger no1?


Does anyone else get confused by this cartridge?


Badge54

[Plenty Coups]

Same bullet and 50 grains of IMR4198 here. Load and shoot fine. Recoil is moderately heavy. Make sure your brass isn't too long. I used factory loads to obtain my brass (HMS 405 JFP). It is Starline brass and I have had no problems at all.

[45-70.gov]

i seat  my bullets deeper
i will not re-throad my 5 rifles
as they all...even my marlins ... will engrave rifling  on factory bullits


i cast  405  WLN  and LFN
as  top loads from the trapdoor list are all the fun  i want
i am not interested  in lever or modern  power levels
so  i am sure a little deep seating of the round will not get me in trouble


45-70  already has more case capacity then most of us need........or want

[Jimbo47]

1. COL of 2.55 with a max case length of 2.105"
 
2. Not really necessary but I like to crimp slightly
 
3. 405 grain LFNGC over 30.3 grains of IMR4198 and also I like RL7.
 
4.  Modern  loads so you can go mild or load her up if you can take it.
 
Mine wouldn't close either when I tried to load some Sierra 400 grain JSP bullets and I found that loaded at the crimp I was about 1/8" too long and cutting into the lands, so I backed it off to the 2.55 mark and it's good to go.
Just load it to the COL of 2.55 and you'll be fine!

[Swampman]

I keep mine at 2.550.  I use 30 grains of IMR-4198 and I crimp.

[cwlongshot]

QUESTION #1 Is it OK to seat this bullet down deep enough past the crimp groove with 50.5g of 4198?
 
I would worry, as your DECREASING powder capacity. Doing that will RAISE pressures.


QUESTION #2 Should I be crimping at all?
 
I do and prefer it.


QUESTION #3 What are your pet loads specifics.  Bullet, powder, crimp or not, COL for a non- throated Handi?
 
I haven't herd of needing to "throat" and 45-70 H&R... A 38-55 YES.


QUESTION #4 What are the safe load levels for the Handi?  trapdoor, modern or Ruger no1?
 
Every gun is different, start lo and work up. But YES generally speaking the H&R is considered a STRONG action. At least capabule of "Marlin" level loadings. MOST give up far before reaching TOP loadings.


Does anyone else get confused by this cartridge?


Badge54

This is excellent advice and I agree:
 

1. COL of 2.55 with a max case length of 2.105"
 
2. Not really necessary but I like to crimp slightly
 
3. 405 grain LFNGC over 30.3 grains of IMR4198 and also I like RL7.
 
4.  Modern  loads so you can go mild or load her up if you can take it.
 
Just load it to the COL of 2.55 and you'll be fine!

I have 5, 45-70s and none have a problem with a correct length casing seated to the crimp groove. My Marlins don't like the 400G speers longer crimp groove, but my H&R's and Browning DO!
 
Here is a LONG seated 405:

 
Here is a SHORT seated 405:

 
I don't like to post data, but with your having a manual its not necessary, you have good data! 3031 is a very good powder for the 45-70! I prefer 4198, but 3031 is a good choice too. I use a CCI LR primer. Cases matter little, and Starline makes some of the best. Your choice in bullets will also serve you well. I prefer a 400 Speer, but that's just me, I like heavy bullets.
As for a powder charge, as I said I won't list any. But I will tell you 1500 or so FPS works just fine and even factory equivalent loadings of 1250fps for a 405g will kill just as well and any stomping load you could conjure up...
 
Be sure your brass is trimmed to correct length, and seat to the crimp groove and you should be fine. IF you NOT, double check your numbers and if correct, send it back to the factory, something is wrong.
Lastly, there is no reason to "kill" your shoulder when using the grand old 45-70. Factory level loadings work JUST fine... Want a litmus test? Do you think the 454 Casull is enough for deer form a hand gun? Of coarse it is!! Well TRAP DOOR level loadings meet or exceed the 454 from a pistol...  Does that bring it into perspective for you? 
 
 
CW

[Squib]

1. COL of 2.55 with a max case length of 2.105"
 
2. Not really necessary but I like to crimp slightly
 
3. 405 grain LFNGC over 30.3 grains of IMR4198 and also I like RL7.
 
4.  Modern  loads so you can go mild or load her up if you can take it.
 
Mine wouldn't close either when I tried to load some Sierra 400 grain JSP bullets and I found that loaded at the crimp I was about 1/8" too long and cutting into the lands, so I backed it off to the 2.55 mark and it's good to go.
Just load it to the COL of 2.55 and you'll be fine!

sierra makes something other than a 300gr hollowpoint?

[Badge54]

Thank you for all your input.  Your confirmation of the same bullet and lengths are reassuring. 

I am sure this will become one of my favorite rifles to play with.  The 45-70 seems to have so much versitility.

Thanks
Badge54

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[quickdtoo]

The ogive shape of the bullet determines how long a cartridge can be loaded relative to the throat depth, that's the problem with the 405gr Rem and 400gr Speer and even most 350gr, their fat ogive makes a big difference compared to the smaller 300gr bullets. You can see the difference in the comparison below, L to R, 300gr Speer, 300gr Rem, 405gr Rem, 400gr Speer FN, 350gr Speer FN, 350gr Hornady RN and 350gr Hornady FP Interlock.

Tim

[BBF]

I have no problems chambering the 350 gr Speer into both of my Handis. That Speer bullet is probably the "pointiest" of all of them. BTW Speer recommends a minimum MV for this bullet. If you use Trapdoor level, use the 400 gr Speer FN or the 405 gr. Rem's.

[quickdtoo]

I have no problems chambering the 350 gr Speer into both of my Handis. That Speer bullet is probably the "pointiest" of all of them. BTW Speer recommends a minimum MV for this bullet. If you use Trapdoor level, use the 400 gr Speer FN or the 405 gr. Rem's.

Depends "who's" trapdoor level the shooter uses, they aren't all the same, Speer's modern rifle(Ruger) data limit is 35kup, 5kcup less than Hornady's and Hodgdon's Levergun level of 40kcup!  Anyway, Speer recommends a minimum impact velocity over 1900fps for their 350gr, they list trapdoor data with a limit of 21kcup up to 1715fps MV in their 26" barrel.

Tim

[BKS]

The Speer bullet looks good.

[cwlongshot]

not to hijack, but jumping in with a question. I like the looks of that 400gr speer bullet. it looks like you could load it deeper and it looks like it has more exposed lead on the front.
 
Quik or anybody care to comment on that bullet.

SURE!!
 I like this bulet best and have shot many head of game with it. I have shot game with it going 1300 to 2100 fps and every time it has worked as needed. At 2100 it hit a 210# Black bear in the sholders and only pieces made it out the other side. BUT it broke both front sholders and kept the bear grounded!
IMHO its a top choice for anyone hunting with this caliber/
 
CW

[gcrank1]

If you use any of the start loads from the manual and seat the bullet to let the action close without forcing it will be fine; using top loads and deeper seating can cause pressure problems.
I find the start load of 3031 to be a nice step up in velo/pwr from my std. Trail Boss load.

[BBF]

not to hijack, but jumping in with a question. I like the looks of that 400gr speer bullet. it looks like you could load it deeper and it looks like it has more exposed lead on the front.
 
Quik or anybody care to comment on that bullet.

...............
................................

 
The 400 gr Speer is blunter then the 405 gr Remington.
BC for the Speer is .214  The Remington is .281` If you can buy it in bulk it is a very economical bullet.

[gatorshooter]

I load a Ranchdog mold, 460-425gr cast Wheel weight, water quinched, gaschecked, LBT blue lube. 38 gr h4198. virgin starline nickle brass. well crimped in top groove. use in my handi and marlin. It will just engrave rifling on my handi and will cycle in my marlin.  shot a 1.5" group at 100 a few weeks back with handi.  Nikon 3x9x40. It will wake you up in my light weight handi.