Swiss Powders

[mike3132]

Hey Guys,
Like to read the great stuff you BPCR shooters do. I have a question about Swiss powder. Is it worth the money? How much better is it compared to Goex? Is the advantage just less fouling? Thanks to those that answer. Mike

[Gunny]

Mike,

There was a time a couple of years ago that I would have said yes it (Swiss) is a lot better and way worth the extra price. Goex for a few years got a bad run of charcoil and there powder was a little tough to get working. You see the problem was befor Goex moved from New Jersey down to Louisiana they where making a very good powder. After the move there was a period of time, a few years, that there charcoil was just not as good. There was nothing wrong with this powder it was just slower, and not as consistant from lot to lot. I had a load for this powder that while about 60fps slower it still shot good. Some reported that they couldn't get it to shoot at all, I never believed that, maybe they just didn't know how to do proper load work-up. Then along came a true sporting grade of black powder from the Swiss folks. There had not been a powder available to shooters like this for over a 100 years. It shoots great and is the same from lot to lot. Loading with this is a easy thing. The new lot os Swiss the 2002 stuff is very good powder, let me say that again, the 2002 Goex is very good powder. And no one should be worried about this new Goex. I personally will stay with the Swiss it is a little pricey but it shoots so good for my match rifle that I will keep using it for now. Good Luck Gunny

[rdnck]

Mike--Gunny summarized it pretty well.  Both Goex and Swiss are excellent powders.  I have shot Goex for years, and the bad lot of charcoal Gunny refered to ran from about May to October of 1998.  That vintage of powder , while accurate, was slow.  The powder starting in Jan. 2001 had better than average velocity, but was still a little slower than the Swiss--which has always been a fast, hotter burning powder.  The current 2002 Goex is actually as fast as, if not a little faster than Swiss.

Swiss will foul, contrary to what you may hear from some people.  In hot weather, the hotter burning Swiss will foul, and foul hard.  Goex will also foul, but when you learn to use it and use bullet weight and compression to achieve a balanced load, the fouling is actually very light.  Most people simply are unwilling or unable to work up a load with Goex.  Goex does require compression--usually on the order of .350 to .380 in a 45 caliber rifle.  Swiss is more of a dump it in and go proposition.

I routinely get standard deviations of between 2 and 4 fps in my 45-70 with Goex, shot across an Oehler 35P, and I keep the chronograph tapes.  I am currently shooting Goex 2f made in Nov. of 2000 in my match rifles.

Goex can be purchased by the case from Powder Inc and delivered to your door by UPS for $200 plus a hazmat and shipping charge of around $38 or so.  Swiss will run close to $400 a case.  You can reach Powder Inc. at 479-705-0005.  I don't think they handle Swiss, but they are a good source for Goex.  Hope this helps, shoot straight, rdnck.

Chairman
Caddo Lake Chapter
FES

[Gunny]

Mike,
When I responded to your post I intended to say something about the fouling and as usually it just got by me. I am a Swiss powder user and I am here to tell you Swiss powder fouls and can foul badly. The first time I used Swiss I really didn't know how to load this powder. So I loaded it with a lot of compression. I could not sell that stuff fast enough. Fouling would be an understatement i had to take a hammer to pound a wet patch down the bore. Sense that experiance i have learned that Swiss does not require or need any compression. It still fouls and in the dry weather here in CA it can be a problem, you just have to learn to deal with the fouling. Swiss is pricey the last case I bought was $406 and a little change. It is good powder, but how good and at what price you need to find that out for yourself.  Good Luck Gunny

[fredj]

Mike- The Swiss is the highest quality most consistent BP period, but it's
a true Sporting rate of burn grade of BP and has an extremely narrow
lattiude in it's PODR (point of diminishing returns) that can be seen rather dramatically if you shoot over a chronograph particularly if you feed the data to a ballistics program and look at a curve as you progressively increase the charge at a given point the velocity will increase at a decreasing rate until it ceases to increase altogether but the recoil and fouling continue to increase, with the Swiss the light ash type fouling becomes a hard tar fouling thats really nasty, the finer the grade the more critical the PODR becomes, generally if you're using FFg of a rifle grade (Goex, or Elephant) in a given application you should use 1 1/2 Fg or Fg Swiss and proportionaly less, with little or no compression. I love the Swiss in my flinters and small bores and my .38-55, but find a Rifle or Musket grade BP
works better in most of my bigger bore shooting particularly in overbore
loading situations, the rfile and Musket powders have PODR limitations also but considerably more lattitude and are much more forgiving, the Swiss also has a sharper recoil implulse than slower BP's. Most of the folks that complain about the Swiss don't understand it's properties and are miss-using it by using too much and or too fine a grade, too much compression etc. I think it's $18.00 a lb is a bargain if you're usng it
properly in specific applications, I'd suggest getting a mixed case where you get some Swiss to experiment with and the rest the Elephant or GOEX
you normally shoot. fredj

[Boge]

I use Swiss FFg & FFFg primarily.  The FFFg excels with 44-40 rifle loads. For example, Christmas day I fired 72 CONSECUTIVE shots from a new Uberti carbine with 25 gr. Swiss FFFg, one pressing of beeswax brood comb followed by a 0.125 .410 shotgun card wad  and Lee 200 gr. RFP bullet lubed with "secret sauce" BP lube. Results: no loss of accuracy. Temperature was 19F but the relative humidity was 90%.  I'd say that was impressive IMHO. Swiss, like all BP's, works best above 35% rel. humidity. You really have to "work" to find the "sweet spot" with Swiss but when you do the money will mean little if anything.  :wink:

[kevin]

   HI guys just wanted to coment that in the skirmishes that ived shot goex ,black elepant, wano,  swiss and kik, and have had trouble during the more humid days with swiss like you all have untill i changed my bullet lubercation, whent to stuff called mcm lube: its from
                                     north east trade co.
                       1980 john brady drive , muncy, pa 17756
                                    570-546-2061
this atuff works real good and helps keep the fowling down , i was experiancing the same problems in my muskets too and this has helped
tremendusly, and improved accuracy to, before inbetween relays about 15 rounds it was a real bear to get a brush bown a bore to break down the fowling and getting ready for the next relay.
     And in my smith carbine i even swiched powders to kik the only hae graduations of 3fg and 2fg, upon swiching powders i redused my charges from 25grns. swiss to 15 grns. kik and had to use cream o whaet as a filler and mcm lube to obtain one ragged hole at 100 yards off the bench and 13/4 to 21/2 inch groups off hand depending on range lighting (yes lighting does have an effect with me).
                                              kevin  

[Boge]

I've used MCM Lube for 2 yrs. or better and it's a great BP lube. Better than SPG IMHO (and cheaper too!).  You have to be careful with it when it's real hot however.  Last Summer I took some MCM Lube and smeared a dab on a steel pole on a hot day and it became runny very quickly.  Either stiffen it with beeswax or keep the cartridges cool.

[kevin]

   Yes sir you definately hit the nail when real hot and crappy i usually keep a small soda cooler fiiled with water and my cartiges in it my seem weird but it works great.
                                kevin