police pepper spray passive students

[Brett]

Welcome to Amerika comrades, check your Constitutional rights at the door before entering.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57328202/video-police-pepper-spray-passive-students/

[Graybeard]

Yup commented on this in another thread someone posted. I think everyone but me on that thread thought it was funny and deserved. I guess some folks just don't understand the Constitution is for all of us.

The cop in the photo should lose his job and perhaps even do some time for that spray job.

[Old Syko]

Yup commented on this in another thread someone posted. I think everyone but me on that thread thought it was funny and deserved. I guess some folks just don't understand the Constitution is for all of us.

The cop in the photo should lose his job and perhaps even do some time for that spray job.

I absolutely agree!  The easiest way to know if a cop was in the right for his actions or not is to turn the tables.  What would happen if the pepper spray was in the victims hand instead of the cops hand.  That this thug wears a badge doesn't make him privileged and he should therefore suffer the same consequence as anyone else.

[spikehorn]

Agreed, there was no threat to the police because they were surrounded. just like the cop that sprayed them they all could have stepped right over them. They are trying to justify thier actions.

[Brett]

Sorry GB,  I did not see the other thread already started on this subject.

Like you I find it interesting that many here think that it is perfectly okay for the authorities to stomp all over the rights of individuals who's views differ from their own.  Our Constitution says we have the right to peaceably assemble.  As long as the students were on public property (not on campus) they were within the law. 

If this group of students were demonstrating for the right to carry concealed on campus for self defense I wonder how many would think it was a laugh that they got maced? 

[yellowtail3]

The easiest way to know if a cop was in the right for his actions or not is to turn the tables.

Oh, they don't like that, not AT ALL. Laws are for thee, saith LEO, not for me. I do like your idea, though.
What would happen if the pepper spray was in the victims hand instead of the cops hand.Most likely, the police would have shot him to death, had he walked up to them and started pepper-spraying.

  That this thug wears a badge doesn't make him privileged and he should therefore suffer the same consequence as anyone else.

Unfortunately, it seems that these days a badge is good for a pass on a LOT of things that would be me arrested, shot, or knocked silly.

FROM THE ARTICLE:
"There was no way out of that circle," Spicuzza said. "They were cutting the officers off from their support. It's a very volatile situation."
 
Ah yes... OFFICER SAFETY.

[yellowtail3]

From another article:
 
http://news.yahoo.com/passive-occupy-protesters-pepper-spray-blast-021103566.html
 

After reviewing the video, [former Baltimore Police Department lieutenant] Kelly said he observed at least two cases of "active resistance" from protesters. In one instance, a woman pulls her arm back from an officer. In the second instance, a protester curls into a ball. Each of those actions could have warranted more force, including baton strikes and pressure-point techniques. "What I'm looking at is fairly standard police procedure," Kelly said.

Alrighty... pull your arm back from some cop laying hands on you, and you get baton strikes. I think that's aggravated assault/battery if I administer the baton strikes. Better than getting shot to death, I suppose... we should be grateful?
 
former Baltimore Police Department lieutenant

[Shu]

So much for the constitution. Peaceful protests were supposed to be a right.
THINK for minute- whether we agree with what is being protested or not these people had there rights abused.
 
Maybe we should just give up on the constitution it isn't being used anyway.
 

[ironglow]

  Guess I'll go down and pull an 18 wheeler across the eastbound I-10..park it and refuse to budge.  Do you suppose those dirty cops would  (or should) force me to move ?
   What difference does it make that anybody..driving one car or a thousand, wants to mind their business and continue from Biloxi to Jacksonville unhindered...
 
   SO WHAT !!!....I HAVE MY RIGHTS !!   .....And I don't care about theirs..       

[Shu]

IG,
I understand your point completely, however these kids were sitting on a sidewalk not blocking vehicle traffic. If you sit beside the truck and leave the keys in the igntion so the LEO's can arrest you and move it, you are passively resisting.
 
We are gauranteed under the constitution the right to assemble, and protest. Passive resistance as in sitting or laying down should not be met with batons, chemical agents or rubber bullets.
 
I do not agree with the OWS crowd but they do have a right to protest. Either the constitution is for every citizen or it is useless. When we allow each right to be eroded it will not be long until they are all gone.
 
GreyBeard locked the other thread in an effort to teach about the constitution. That is his right as the owner. I certainly do not agree with his methodology in that lesson but I think it is very enlightening. Whether you agree with what is being protested or not it is still a right. How far would the civil rights movement have gotten if there were no protests or civil disobiedence.
No OWS is not like the civil rights movement except in the fact both groups excercise constitutional rights.

[dukkillr]

The thing is, some people just cannot get past their message to consider the core Constitutional concept.  Some aren't smart enough.  Some people just don't care.  Some have an image they must work so hard to try and project.  I won't hazard a guess as to why.
 
But just ask yourself this: What would their response be if the rally had been sponsored by the NRA?  Or anti immigration rally?  They condemn those protesters who block sidewalks at abortion clinics too right?  You already know the answer I'm sure. 

[ironglow]

  Those students were CAMPING on the lawn which was never intended for that use, they were asked to move on and refused..so should have been subject to the same arrest I would, were I to block the I-10 with an 18 wheeler and refuse the reasonable request.  If the NRA or Pro life groups block passage of others, they should and have gotten the same treatment.
   ....And if the NRA were to "camp out" illegally on the lawn of the Statue of liberty and block passage of others who want to view the statue without political interference..they should be arrested ...and sprayed if they don't move on.
   REAL conservatives don't view "mob rights" as being more worthwhile than "individual rights"...

[mcwoodduck]

Yup commented on this in another thread someone posted. I think everyone but me on that thread thought it was funny and deserved. I guess some folks just don't understand the Constitution is for all of us.

The cop in the photo should lose his job and perhaps even do some time for that spray job.

I absolutely agree!  The easiest way to know if a cop was in the right for his actions or not is to turn the tables.  What would happen if the pepper spray was in the victims hand instead of the cops hand.  That this thug wears a badge doesn't make him privileged and he should therefore suffer the same consequence as anyone else.

Full stop.
The students were given a choice to move or be moved.
It was a lawful order form the police.  The pepper spay was used as a persuasion to get the students to move.  Along with the right to free speach and the right to assemble you do not have the right to block access, close business, and disrupt others.
These kids / students were given every oppertunity to move and they chose to be pepper sprayed and arrested. 
The police officer, his boss ae are paid leave, pending a review, as of now and they are asking for the Chancelors head on a platter.
My problem is not with the police, my problem is with the leadership that sends the police in ot break up the demonstration and then yell at the police for being too rough, be it College or mayor.
Either the demonstrators are a threat and need to be moved or they are not.
Either the camping is a health hazard or it is not.  So far a few great ones are leaking out from ambulance drives as to what they are seeing but are being kept quiet in the media.
 
 

[guzzijohn]

There are other and better methods of dealing with passive resistance. Firearms, batons, tazers and pepper spray are for controlling physical aggression, not peaceful protest even if the protesters are not obeying orders and are technically breaking laws. I am really getting tired of multiple reports of police handing out street justice by either their own doing or from orders. Determining guilt and punishment is what courts are for, not the officer on the street.
GuzziJohn

[SHOOTALL]

I would like to know what the spray was ? It seemed to have little or no effect . I have "tested" peper spray and it can be tuff. It looked like more marker really.
That said there are other ways to move people out the way.

[Old Syko]

Those who can't understand the difference between what these people were doing and yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater or even blocking an interstate highway must be suffering from delusions of grandeur.  They seem to be more than willing to support a police state environment.  Well good luck to them.  Of course when they find themselves on the other side of some thug in a uniform they will be willing to bow down to authority I'm sure.      Funny thing is, most who think actions such as these are OK are the same ones who preach freedom of religion as long as it is "THEIR" religion.  Which amendment is hypocrisy covered by in the constitution.


As stated by GB in the other thread, if police actions like this continue it will soon turn into a shooting war.  Is this what we really want?  NOT ME!  But I'm prepared in case that is the way things are forced to turn out.  Those on the other side of the debate will likely be cowering in a corner somewhere unable to realize they were part of the problem.

[mcwoodduck]

Those who can't understand the difference between what these people were doing and yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater or even blocking an interstate highway must be suffering from delusions of grandeur.  They seem to be more than willing to support a police state environment.  Well good luck to them.  Of course when they find themselves on the other side of some thug in a uniform they will be willing to bow down to authority I'm sure.      Funny thing is, most who think actions such as these are OK are the same ones who preach freedom of religion as long as it is "THEIR" religion.  Which amendment is hypocrisy covered by in the constitution.


As stated by GB in the other thread, if police actions like this continue it will soon turn into a shooting war.  Is this what we really want?  NOT ME!  But I'm prepared in case that is the way things are forced to turn out.  Those on the other side of the debate will likely be cowering in a corner somewhere unable to realize they were part of the problem.

Unfortunatly these demostrators are more than willing to use our rules against us.  The students are protesting hiks in tuition, and I understand that.  What tey want is for the state to confiscate MORE of my money and give it to them so they do not have to pay as much. 
The officer was following the policy of the University in either marking the ones to be arrested or actually using pepper spray to move them.  MY comment is not about the police, or the demonstrators in this case.  It is about the administration who gave the order to clear the area.  All the police did was carry out the administrations orders. 
If I tell you to clean up a mess and you have a way to do that, who's fault is it that you used that method?  The police or the ones who gavethe order to clear the area.  I understand the whole lawful order and the obligation to refuse any illegal order.
 
By other concern is the students are protesting to have a larger police state, that is needed to confiscate more of my money,  and are willing to say are needed to kill capitalists, but are upset when that same police force is used against them and not allowing them to get their way and make them follow the rules that are set up for hygene.  And it is a campus law/ policy/ rule that there is not camping on the university property.
 

[guzzijohn]

alifornia Penal Code Section 12403.7 (a) ( (g) Any person who uses tear gas or tear gas weapons except in self-defense is guilty of a public offense and is punishable by imprisonment in a state prison for 16 months, or two or three years or in a county jail not to exceed one year or by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment, except that, if the use is against a peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, engaged in the performance of his or her official duties and the person committing the offense knows or reasonably should know that the victim is a peace officer, the offense is punishable by imprisonment in a state prison for 16 months or two or three years or by a fine of one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment.[/font]

[Old Syko]

WHAT is being protested has no relevance.  The reaction and action taken IS the issue.  Administration gave orders that overstepped their authority and those orders were blindly carried out by 2 or more individuals who saw a chance to assuage their own egos at someone else's expense while feeling their own butts were covered.  Such things are a sickness that will end us all if not dealt with as it should be.   

[Dee]

I agree. I think those protesters should have been allowed to block vehicle, and foot traffic, and  for as long as they liked. The nerve of some people wanting to folks to move, and calling the police when they don't want to move. Everyone knows that the police are going to take their "orders" seriously and enforce the law. The police should have gone home, and minded their own business. Good grief! The school could have just a easily called the local bar association to come and "ask" the students to please move, and I'm sure they would have, after the bar association had explained to them, that they were unknowingly, and accidentally violating the law. Whoever said that protesting and violating other peoples rights, in the process was wrong, was just not thinking.

[Graybeard]

Some folks will never get it. It's NOT about the message it's about the Constitution and if you don't support it for all them when you feel the need to protest no one will support you.

I guess some just plain don't care about anyone or anything but themselves and their ideas. Me I believe in and support the US Constitution without reservation.

[lakota]

I just dont see where the first amendment gives one carte blanc to do whatever the person wants to do while they are protesting. Maybe I am just "too stupid" to see where it is at as was pointed out by a previous poster
 
I see they want to disrupt the Macy's Thanksgiving day parade now. Is that going too far or is disrupting a parade implied as protected under the 1st amendment?
 
 

[mcwoodduck]

WHAT is being protested has no relevance.  The reaction and action taken IS the issue.  Administration gave orders that overstepped their authority and those orders were blindly carried out by 2 or more individuals who saw a chance to assuage their own egos at someone else's expense while feeling their own butts were covered.  Such things are a sickness that will end us all if not dealt with as it should be.

What is being protested is relevant.  If you are calling for a police state to steal money from one group and give it to another.  You can not scream about the police being used toi end your protest or move you.
Again what the police did was with in policy of their department.  The problem comes when the administration of the liberal school told the police to move them, knowing what the police were going to do under their roit policy.

[Swampman]

The students are stupid.  I don't care if they pepper spray them night and day.

[lakota]

According to this article camping and tent cities are not protected under the 1st amendment:
 
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203699404577046591489468470.html

[Dee]

WHAT is being protested has no relevance.  The reaction and action taken IS the issue.  Administration gave orders that overstepped their authority and those orders were blindly carried out by 2 or more individuals who saw a chance to assuage their own egos at someone else's expense while feeling their own butts were covered.  Such things are a sickness that will end us all if not dealt with as it should be.

What is being protested is relevant.  If you are calling for a police state to steal money from one group and give it to another.  You can not scream about the police being used toi end your protest or move you.
Again what the police did was with in policy of their department.  The problem comes when the administration of the liberal school told the police to move them, knowing what the police were going to do under their roit policy.
[/quote/]
 
There ya go mcduck. Who called the police in the first place? I'm bettin the school called them. Their like most people. Their afraid to do it themselves, so they call the police to do it. Then when the police move them, the callers bitch about how they moved them. I have PERSONALLY SEEN THIS, hundreds of times. Move them your damned self if you don't like what their doin! Folks CONTINUALLY whine about the police did this, or the police did that. Do it yourself, and then you won't have anything to complain about. Go over there, just order those students to get up and move. I'm sure they'll just jump right up and leave.
I'm all for freedom of speech. As the man said: Wave your arms in protest all you want! Just don't hit anyone with your arms while doing so. The first amendment is a fine thing, but the folks that don't like what happened, don't necessarily understand the first amendment as well as they think they do. Your first amendment right DOES NOT, give you the right to infringe on other people's rights, such as their right to "freedom of movement" while your protesting. Contrary to most heres opinion, it IS NOT the police's job to get beat up, or beat on. It's their job to take care of a complaint in the most safe, and expedient manner available. I seriously doubt that they were simply driving down the street and said: Hey look! Protesters! Let's go abuse them, and spray them with pepper spray! Let's go cause ourselves some problems! They were called to move a bunch of obnoxious students, that were apparently annoying others, and causing a problem. Now we have the usual folks here yelling: POLICE STATE!
I'd love to see what some of you POLICE STATE ALARMISTS would do if a couple of hundred protesters decided YOUR YARD would be a good place to camp out a couple months. WHAT WOULD "YOU" DO TO MOVE THEM OUT? Wait! I'm bettin you'd call the police and be damned happy to see them move out regardless of how it was accomplished. Or maybe you'd just go out there in the crowd, and shed some of that "never been there infinite wisdom" on them, and watch them simply appoligize and leave.
Next time the school officials should call their school lawyers on the protesters. That would be fun to watch.[/quote]

[1marty]

these were "campus police". Finally instead of giving out parking tickets, putting cones next to pot holes or busting kids drinking beer they at last got some real crime. There were no buildings being blocked, there was no one being threatened, in fact to avoid the demonstrators all you had to do was walk 10 feet to the left or right around them. This "cop" should be brought up on assault charges.

[mcwoodduck]

these were "campus police". Finally instead of giving out parking tickets, putting cones next to pot holes or busting kids drinking beer they at last got some real crime. There were no buildings being blocked, there was no one being threatened, in fact to avoid the demonstrators all you had to do was walk 10 feet to the left or right around them. This "cop" should be brought up on assault charges.

OK maybe this time you all will get it.
The police are not just given tools (lethal and non lethal)  They are trained how to use them.  There is a policy issued by the department.  If siutuation 1 happens A will be our response.  The administration of the college knows these policies.
The liberals showed their true nature, when the OWS groups turned on the masters and are upset with them they unleashed the police knowing what the policy response will be. In order to regain control.  It was OK when the OWS people were upset with Capitalism but want to end the demostrations when they are against liberal institutions and government.  You do not get a better cross of the two than in the State University at Berkely.  Where big Government meets liberalism and these students had the nerve to protest a fee hike.
As  these protests realize that the Liberal Government policies of anti capitalism, excessive taxation, anti energy,  and multiple government agencies that are acting like lawmakers are the problem you will see a huge crack down on these people.  And the police will be told to do more and more to remove any protestor.