Author Topic: Lyle Gun? (Read 2341 times)

Zulu · « **on:** October 11, 2011, 04:18:41 AM »

Can some one help me to determine if this barrel is real?
It is not my barrel. It was purchased from an antique dealer last week, who claimed it was pulled from the San Jacinto River here in East Texas around 80 years ago. I have no reason to believe or disbelieve that story. I did not take these pictures.
It measures;
32" long
5 1/8" at breach
9 1/4" end to end on trunnions
1 1/2" diameter trunnions
1 1/8" trunnion length
3 1/2" muzzle width

I have no other pictures. I saw this barrel for a few minutes yesterday.
I was unable to search it for any more numbers at the time but the owner told me the only markings were on the muzzle face. I do not have the bore measurement but I could get it if needed.
Thanks,
Zulu

flagman1776 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 11, 2011, 05:27:05 AM »

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #2 on:** October 11, 2011, 05:57:47 AM »

Looks like this tube has more 'Blakely Gun' features than 'Lyle Gun' features. The prominent, applied Trunnion Band of the Blakely field guns is evident. We am not aware of any that large on Lyle guns. The squared off Cascabel of the Blakely Guns at Fort Pulaski near Savannah, Georgia is on this tube as well. Also the weight compensation feature of a reduction near the muzzle is evident. This was noted on a Blakely field gun supplied to the South during the Civil War in the CaptainBlakely.org website. In that instance, an applied ring was placed on the tube in the area of the Chase to compensate for Breech heaviness.

We are not aware of any Blakely guns this small, but these similarities are interesting even if it is NOT one. There was one 2.1 inch Blakely gun made for Peru in 1861, but it was rifled. It is thanks to our wanderings all over the country and to the exellent Blakely Gun website here: http://captainblakely.org/FirstManufacture.aspx that we have this info, even if it proves not to be pertinent. It is fun to speculate. Hope we hear from Starr 2011 on this one.

Mike and Tracy

The square Blakely Cascabel can be seen on the Pulaski Guns; there are two here. Our photo.

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #3 on:** October 11, 2011, 09:00:48 AM »

Maybe someone with a copy of The Lifesaving Guns of David Lyle by J.P. Barnett could tell us if ANY of this type of Line Throwing gun had a large, prominent Trunnion Ring similar to that which Zulu's find displays. Also, is there a standard bore dia. associated with these guns? To know what the tube markings in the first photo are as well as the bore dia. would be very helpful too.

M&T

Zulu · « **Reply #4 on:** October 11, 2011, 09:35:52 AM »

Quote from: seacoastartillery on October 11, 2011, 09:00:48 AM

Maybe someone with a copy of The Lifesaving Guns of David Lyle by J.P. Barnett could tell us if ANY of this type of Line Throwing gun had a large, prominent Trunnion Ring similar to that which Zulu's find displays. Also, is there a standard bore dia. associated with these guns? To know what the tube markings in the first photo are as well as the bore dia. would be very helpful too.

M&T

M&T,
I don't think there were any tube markings other than on the muzzle face.
The guy that owns this barrel wants to trade it to me for one of my concrete cannons. At first he wanted me to build a carriage for it but is changing his mind after finding out what it is going to cost. He paid $1000 for it and then had "The Cannon Superstore" appraise it by looking at pictures for $50. They said it was worth $1500 but I don't put much stock in that. They were looking at the same pictures you are.
Thanks for the help. I need to make up my mind if I want it.
I'm waiting for Cannoneer to chip in here. He is pretty good with stuff like this.
Zulu

Zulu · « **Reply #5 on:** October 11, 2011, 09:47:37 AM »

This gun is for sale. It's not an auction so I think its okay to post here. It looks a lot like thebarrel in the above pictures except for the muzzle.
Zulu
http://www.checkpointcharlies.com/showproduct.aspx?Productid=7644&categoryid=19

rmagill · « **Reply #6 on:** October 11, 2011, 09:57:23 AM »

I have the Barnett book, I can take a look this evening. It doesnt show them all but does have most styles.
Bob

Zulu · « **Reply #7 on:** October 11, 2011, 10:03:59 AM »

Here is another one that is similiar. This one sold on Gunbroker for $3000.
Zulu

flagman1776 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 11, 2011, 10:27:49 AM »

GGaskill · « **Reply #9 on:** October 11, 2011, 11:03:04 AM »

Side by side:

From Checkpoint Charlie's

From the OP.

Looks pretty close except for the muzzle reduction.

Zulu · « **Reply #10 on:** October 11, 2011, 02:01:48 PM »

Thanks George,
That gives you a good perspective.
Zulu

flagman1776 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 11, 2011, 02:56:26 PM »

Cannoneer · « **Reply #12 on:** October 11, 2011, 03:07:31 PM »

Zulu,

It sure has the look and dimensions of some models of line throwing cannon. Ckeck out this "cannonmn" slide show, and you'll see one with a similar muzzle (D. Kahmweilers).

Quote from: cannonmn on October 20, 2009, 04:31:56 PM

http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums47/?action=view&current=2055a716.pbw

IvarForkbeard · « **Reply #13 on:** October 11, 2011, 03:42:32 PM »

Almost without exception, every Lyle Gun was stamped on the trunnion with "U.S. L.S.S." for "U.S. Life Saving Services", the forerunner to our modern day Coast Guard (Mud Ducks, Puddle Pirates).

rmagill · « **Reply #14 on:** October 11, 2011, 05:31:30 PM »

Mine is marked MMI on the muzzle along with maker and serial # and what looks like JC, nothing on trunnions. It's a Sculler Safety Corp.
Bob

intoodeep · « **Reply #15 on:** October 11, 2011, 05:59:14 PM »

Quote from: IvarForkbeard on October 11, 2011, 03:42:32 PM

Almost without exception, every Lyle Gun was stamped on the trunnion with "U.S. L.S.S." for "U.S. Life Saving Services", the forerunner to our modern day Coast Guard (Mud Ducks, Puddle Pirates).

There were numerous Lyle guns used commercially and they do not have the USLSS markings. I have even seen a few with USN markings.

As, for Zulu's question. I am pretty sure that this it a Coston tube. The style and muzzle markings tell me this. The serial number is in the 12 o'clock position and the inspectors marking of "EK" has been seen on other Costons. The one thing that throws me is the turned down portion of the muzzle. It's hard to tell by the photo but, it looks like that portion is aged a little less then the rest of the tube. That's just my .02

Now, I just need to find where I hid my Lyle book.

rmagill · « **Reply #16 on:** October 11, 2011, 06:38:39 PM »

found my book.... "Inspectors marks vary but always include the inspectors initials, and usually the bureau in charge. M.M.I.= Bureau of Marine Inspection and Navigation U.S.I.=Steamboat Inspection Service Coast Guard = 4 leaf clover with U.S.C.G. in the leaves. Some guns are dated, most are not. All known makers records have long since disappeared" Page 71 from The Lifesaving Guns of David Lyle
Bob

Double D · « **Reply #17 on:** October 12, 2011, 06:48:21 AM »

Bob,

does that apply to all line throwing guns or just the Lyle's?

KABAR2 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 12, 2011, 07:55:36 AM »

You know something like this with a little work to the trunnion and a added reinforce to the breech could
end up looking very much like the 2.75 inch mountain gun by A.T. Blakely shown in Shooter2's European
Invasion it would be one way to bring new life to a so-so tube......

Starr 2011 · « **Reply #19 on:** October 12, 2011, 08:39:16 AM »

Just to confirm that Zulu’s gun isn’t a Blakely. It’s smooth-bored. It looks to be entirely cast iron. It hasn’t got a breech band (obviously unnecessary for a smooth-bore), it hasn’t any breech or trunnion markings, but it has a muzzle stamp, which is unknown on Blakely guns.

I am sure that, as everyone else has said, it’s a Coston Lyle life-saving gun.

I admit to getting excited that it might have been one of the CS Texan Blakely’s reported in the OR. But it would indeed make a nice “Blakely” mountain gun.

Starr

KABAR2 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 12, 2011, 09:15:29 AM »

Oh it's a Lyle gun not sure if cast iron or cast steel..... but looking at the shape I could see posibilities of making into somthing shootable.... though the original is 2.75 it could be brought down from 3" to 2.5 with a rifled liner ....unfortunalty the owner paid too much for what is there to make it a possible project......

Zulu · « **Reply #21 on:** October 12, 2011, 09:42:28 AM »

The owner of the barrel has decided to keep it. I have not shared any of this info with him nor do I guess I will.
He says he may come to me for a carriage for it later.

While trying to research this barrel, I came across two auctions .
This gun sold for $3840

This gun is on auction now. The interesting part is that it says the estimated range is $100 to $200 with a starting bid of $50.
If anyone wants the site, they can PM me. This auction also had a 10 Gauge Winchester cannon with a starting bid of $10.
Zulu

rmagill · « **Reply #22 on:** October 12, 2011, 10:03:32 AM »

Zulu
The book concentates on Lyle guns so I would only trust the markings to them. Bronze guns almost always sell high, I'd bet the second one goes for just as much as the first one you found. I believe your friends bore should actually be 2 1/2" but there's not much doubt it is a Lyle.
Bob

cannonmn · « **Reply #23 on:** November 09, 2011, 12:55:06 AM »

The item pictured twice in reply no. 21 is almost certainly one of the many fakes of this pattern. They look good on the outside and are a bit hard to tell from the original Galbraith guns. Two I've inspected are too light, and the bores are not very smooth. If you try to fire them I'm guessing they would fail unless a very light blank load was used. This pattern of fakes has been around for about 20 years and I think comes from Taiwan. The muzzles are marked similar to the originals. This one appears to have steel bolts which are not correct, original Galbraith all-bronze guns had bronze bolts. The fakes are made of some type of yellow metal but it is not high-strength bronze like the originals.

gene of oregon · « **Reply #24 on:** November 26, 2011, 04:54:28 PM »

The tube in question is a Coston tube. I just checked mine and the measurements from post #1 matches mine. serial # on muzzle are in the same position, mine is 2870. The only difference is where the muzzle has been turned on a lath and stoped. If you look at pic's of other Coston's the tubes have been turned all the way to the breach side of the trunnion. I think the tube and trunnion are one piece on this tube. I'm sure mine is a two piece. Gene PS Mine is complete and for sale