Author Topic: Cast Bullet Loads for Mosin with Lower Pressures?  (Read 1278 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline flmason

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 746
Cast Bullet Loads for Mosin with Lower Pressures?
« on: December 17, 2011, 01:46:34 PM »
Hi All,
    Been researching some of the loads in the C.E. Harris article on Cast Bullets for Milsurp rifles. Seems they pretty much use slower burning pistol powders like 2400... which are fast burning by rifle standards.  For example IMR 4198 is considered a fast burning rifle powder but is listed as slower than 2400 in most burn rate charts.

Net result seems to be like using Bullseye in pistols. High pressure, low velocity. Doesn't strike me as a good way to treat my barrels, LOL!

Anyone know of cast bullet loads for Mosin and similar that exhibit a better tradeoff between pressure and velocity? 

Trying to decide on some set of components to load cast for my MN but haven't really hit on something that seems like a good choice.

Offline Lead Head

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: Cast Bullet Loads for Mosin with Lower Pressures?
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2011, 04:07:54 PM »
You are right when comparing the burn rates of powders suggested for cast bullet loads in rifles, the powders are considered fast for a rifle when compared to the typical jacketed bullet driven at 2800 fps or more. But they are much more suitable for cast bullet loads fired at 1100 to 1400 fps.
 
As for the pressures, powders like Unique up to 2400 do have a faster or sharper pressure curve but if you look at some of the peak pressures for those loads, they will be much lower than the rifle pressures using jacketed bullets and 3031 or even 4350.
 
Cast bullets are at their best when they are started into the bore quickly with enough pressure to cause the bullet to try to swell, but can't because it is already in the bore. That pressure also causes enough pressure applied to the grease grooves of the bullet to hydraulicly press the grease from the grease groove onto to bore, therefore the bullet lubricant is applied to the bore under pressure. This helps greatly to eliminate bore leading.
 
Too slow a start or too little pressure and leading can occur from flame cutting of the bullet or from less lubrication as the bullet goes down the bore.
 
There are a lot of cast bullet shooters that use Red Dot, 700X, Win. 231, AA2 and Unique with cast bullets in rifles. Unique being the slowest of those powders. These use light powder charges and sometimes are not as accurate if the powder position in the shell case is not kept fairly consistant when fired.
 
I have used 11.0 grains of Unique behind a 200 grain cast, gas checked bullet at .314" diameter in my 91-30's with a Remington 9-1/2 primer. The load is very accurate, no pressure problems and no leading. Velocity in the 91-30 tested ran 1235 fps and Extreme spread was only 24.7 fps. I call that a very good load that can be shot all day with no wear and tear on the rifle or the shooter. I usually load my cast bullet rifle loads to 1100 fps to a bit over 1400 fps, with 1200 to 1300 fps my favorite range.
 
I shoot just about every caliber military rifle made. My most used powder is Unique at 10.0 to 13.5 grains for 308, 30-06, 303 British, 7.65x54 Argentine, 6.5 Jap, 7.7 Jap, 6.5x55 Swede and 8mm Mauser. Mostly around 11.0  grains. There are others, but I think you get the idea. 2400 and Surplus WC 820 that acts much like 2400 are my next choice. The bullet weights vary from 180 grains to 215 grains.
 
There are shooters that like to push cast bullets to their limit using rifle powders, but my way of thinking causes me to think messing with the problems of leading with higher velocity cast bullet loads isn't worht it. Then I would go to low velocity jacketed bullet rifle loads. Thats me.

Offline flmason

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 746
Re: Cast Bullet Loads for Mosin with Lower Pressures?
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2011, 04:35:49 PM »
Thanks for the insight. :) Perhaps I tripped over some bad pressure data. Found an article out there somewhere that led me to believe 2400 and the like would raise pressures to the 40,000 range.

I guess the middle of the road choice might be gas checks or even paper patching.

Is it just me, or does it strike anyone else that 150-180 grain bullets at 1200-1400 fps doesn't seem any better than a hot .357 or .44 for hunting purposes, with the detractor that you have a rifle sized gun to use?

I'd suspect flatter trajectories of course, the bullets have a better BC.  But I'm wondering if I'd be better served with my .44 using say a 429421 and 19-21 gr of 2400 or the similar IMR 4227 loads?

Guess what I'm trying to say is, to justify using a rifle seems, especially since the bullets are lighter, one need to go for higher velocity? (Shooting for just for the fun of it aside.)

Unfortunately I have a streak in me that says I'd like to make as many of the parts as possible, and well... making jacketed bullets is probably beyond my budget and skills.

While I'm thinking about it. Anyone know what problems or downsides might arise using a gas check bullet without the check? Doesn't seem too different to me than the use of heeled bullets in .22 or various antique cartridges that catered to conversion of cap and ball revolvers to cartridges. Was considering the three Lee molds in .312 as potential molds. Or possibly, if paper patching, some of the .308 molds.

Offline Lead Head

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: Cast Bullet Loads for Mosin with Lower Pressures?
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2011, 12:13:03 PM »
I tried shooting a couple of my favorite cast gas check type bullet without gas checks.
 
The bullets with gas checks didn't lead a velocities up to 1400 to 1500 fps. Without gas checks I had to drop the velocities close to 1000 fps or leading was terrible. It didn't work for me.
 
Some shooters find a plain base bullet can be fired up to 1100 to 1200 fps without leading, but the load has to be just right with a powder and primer, otherwise 1100 fps is max. Factors such as bullet diameter, type of lube, bullet fit to the gun, bullet hardnes and more all contribute to what will or will not work.
 
The shooter has to decide up front what he or she wants this load to do.

Offline woodchukhntr

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (108)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2359
Re: Cast Bullet Loads for Mosin with Lower Pressures?
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2011, 01:33:34 PM »
Look up "the load" for using Red Dot in rifles.  It shoots very well with either cast or jacketed bullets.  I have used it in 7.62x54, .308, 7.5x55, .30-06 and .45-70 with great success.

Offline flmason

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 746
Re: Cast Bullet Loads for Mosin with Lower Pressures?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2011, 07:01:40 PM »
I tried shooting a couple of my favorite cast gas check type bullet without gas checks.
 
The bullets with gas checks didn't lead a velocities up to 1400 to 1500 fps. Without gas checks I had to drop the velocities close to 1000 fps or leading was terrible. It didn't work for me.
 
Some shooters find a plain base bullet can be fired up to 1100 to 1200 fps without leading, but the load has to be just right with a powder and primer, otherwise 1100 fps is max. Factors such as bullet diameter, type of lube, bullet fit to the gun, bullet hardnes and more all contribute to what will or will not work.
 
The shooter has to decide up front what he or she wants this load to do.

Basically trying to get as close to real rifle velocities as possible with as few purchased components as I can get away with.

Can't see the point in using a rifle to get handgun performance. Fly in the ointment is the cast bullets require either a check or a patch to get into serious rifle velocity ranges.

I imagine that in all reality, the way to get more "power" in the cast bullet game is to really to up the caliber, since the velocity has a ceiling. I s'pose the old timers knew this and that's why muzzleloaders had such large calibers, well, that and the use of round ball ammo.

No doubt the bottom line is, "Ya want .30 cal. high velocity, you get to pick... jacketed, gas checked, patched or leading..." LOL!

Offline GH1

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 939
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cast Bullet Loads for Mosin with Lower Pressures?
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2011, 12:16:24 AM »
I tried shooting a couple of my favorite cast gas check type bullet without gas checks.
 
The bullets with gas checks didn't lead a velocities up to 1400 to 1500 fps. Without gas checks I had to drop the velocities close to 1000 fps or leading was terrible. It didn't work for me.
 
Some shooters find a plain base bullet can be fired up to 1100 to 1200 fps without leading, but the load has to be just right with a powder and primer, otherwise 1100 fps is max. Factors such as bullet diameter, type of lube, bullet fit to the gun, bullet hardnes and more all contribute to what will or will not work.
 
The shooter has to decide up front what he or she wants this load to do.

  If I'm understanding your post correctly you experienced leading out of a cast GC bullet at 1500 FPS. If that's the case then something is wrong, I routinely shoot cast non  GC bullets at 1600 FPS with no leading whatsoever. If you're using a swaged bullet then that's a different story. If I had to guess I'd say you have an undersized bullet, what diameter are you using? You're most likely going to need something around .311"-.312", maybe bigger.
  If you want a reduced load try some Trail Boss. The formula for determing the load is simple, just determine how far your bullet will reach into the case. This is your max load. then subtract 30% from that, that's your starting load. Just be careful not to compress TB, it  can lead to pressure spikes, I'm told.
I owe my life to an organ donor

Offline Richard P

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cast Bullet Loads for Mosin with Lower Pressures?
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2011, 04:26:21 AM »
Part of the discussion should be ''what powder and charge is used'' with a specified bullet. A second parameter is ''the purpose of the load''. If you just want to punch paper out to 100 yds/meters there is no detriment to 1100 fps loads. 
Those who have followed C E (Ed) Harris know of his affinity for 13.0gr Red Dot in several rifle cartridges. I used the Lyman 314299 and Saeco 301 in a Finnish Mosin for a while. The bullets were seated so just the gas check and a bit more were in the case neck. I used large pistol primers and 20.0 gr Accurate 1680 for about 1600fps.  Do your own research on 1680 and any other quoted charges. rp

Offline Lead Head

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: Cast Bullet Loads for Mosin with Lower Pressures?
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2011, 12:50:46 PM »
GH1 ,
 
You did misunderstand my post.
 
I said I had leading when I tried shooting gas check bullets without the gas check. I had also stated I had no leading with velocities up to 1400 to 1500 fps.
 
I am not aware of any loads I shoot that may be 1600 fps or higher that I have chronographed. I find my loads in the 1200 to 1400 fps range to be my more accurate loads.