Author Topic: Whelen Hog experiment (Read 1743 times)

rickt300 · « **on:** December 04, 2011, 06:49:47 PM »

I have tested the 220 gr. Speer Hotcor's on feral hogs since I posted the "Bullets for the Whelen" thread. The first hog was facing me at 90 yards just pointing a little to my right. I shot him in between the neck and the shoulder meaning to run the bullet lengthwise thru him. I was also about 10 feet higher than the hog. He took off running. I had driven 220 miles to the lease, parked the truck 200 yards from the feeder and snuck up on him 10 minutes before dark. He went into some very thick brush and I had to walk back to the truck to get a flashlight then back to where he went into the brush. There was no blood to follow so I did a pattern search that turned up nothing. The next morning I returned to see a coyote behind the feeder maybe 75 yards out, 25 more than I had searched in the dark. There my hog was, neatly eaten to the bone and the ribs were chewed pretty far up. It was like they semi skinned him and ate all the backstraps, hams and shoulder meat. They ate all the belly hide also so I couldn't say for sure if the bullet exited but my guess is it didn't as there was no sign of blood or hog pieces where he was shot at. The bullet hole was exactly where I aimed it. I can conclude from this that a solidly chest hit hog can run 75 yards. Not really news to me. This hog weighed around 175 pounds before the coyotes got to him. Okay next hog was killeded saturday nite at another feeder on the lease, this time it was already dark and I hit him 6 inches back of the right shoulder as he was angling away from me to my right. This bullet exited for sure just behind the left shoulder blowing chunks of bloody lung tissue out the other side. The hog fell but got back up and trotted almost exactly 75 yards and went down. This time I had plenty of blood to follow right to his final resting spot. The ribs on his right side had a 2 inch hole going in and the ribs on the other side had a slightly smaller hole and the exit hole in the hide was more than an inch across. This was a bigger hog of around 225 pounds and he was neatly colored with a black background and big white spots. I chose the Whelen so I could take a wider variety of shot angles wanting exit holes for the blood trailing that sometimes has to be done. A hog I hit last year with the same rifle but with the 200 gr. Hornady SP gave exactly the same result as the second hog, hit in the ribs he ran around 70 yards, leaving lots of blood from the exit hole. It appears that the 220 Speer may not go thru a hog end to end but I will have to prove it by shooting a couple more hogs with it. It only seems fair to use the whole box of fifty bullets for test purposes.

JesterGrin · « **Reply #1 on:** December 05, 2011, 07:17:44 PM »

Yep them coyotes are a pain at times. A dead hog left alone will not last long at all. Humans are not the only ones that like Pork lol.

The only bullet I have shot with a Hog in my 35 Whelen thus far is the Speer 250Gr Hot-Core. Did a very good job I must say.

In deep south TEXAS near Asherton.

It was funny that after I made the shot the other hunters made fun of me on the radio saying WOW he missed as they did not hear a thump like from those other small caliber rifles. But another hunter said if he shot he got it lol. And yep I got it lol.

rickt300 · « **Reply #2 on:** December 06, 2011, 07:16:36 AM »

Did you eve get your Savage 358 up? The load I used is probably attainable in a 358 or pretty close anyway, 2500 fps with the 220 gr. Speer HC. My next trial will be to hit 2300 fps using the 250 gr. Hornady bullets, the round nose and the spire points. The 220 gr. load didn't cause any problems with recoil while holding a pistol grip spotlight in my left hand and balancing the rifle on my left thumb. All my hog shooting is done at under 100 yards and 358 ballistics will easily handle this.

JesterGrin · « **Reply #3 on:** December 06, 2011, 01:14:19 PM »

Rick nope I do not have the 358 Winchester back yet. And to be honest I do not know when as the builder has had some problems up in Utah. Just this last week 100+ MPH winds put a big hurt on the area and his home.

All I have is Speer 250Gr Hot-Core and Speer 250Gr Grand Slams. Of which I got for the 35 Whelen. But to be honest when I do get the .358 Winchester I have really been leaning towards just using Cast in it from the start and see how they do. I have two Molds. One is the BRP 360-225Gr GC and a NOE 358009 which is a 280Gr RN/GC.

454Puma · « **Reply #4 on:** December 06, 2011, 04:32:01 PM »

Wow them be some tuff hogs!

Taking a hit like that and keep going. Any reason why you don't take out the off side shoulder? This is my favorite shot on deer and it usually plants them right where I shoot them! Or anything else I shoot. I hate tracking!

JesterGrin · « **Reply #5 on:** December 06, 2011, 08:07:36 PM »

I am pretty positive that Rick nor I like to track anything in South TEXAS lol. I do not know where to start. You have Cactus everywhere of different kinds. Then there is Mesquite with up to and beyond 2 inch thorns and if that is not enough depending on the Temp you have to worry about those pesky Rattle Snakes lol. I for one have not seen a Rattle Snake yet much less than 6 Feet Long lol.

That is why when I am out hunting I keep some hand pruning sears in my pocket for the Mesquite and keep a sharp eye out for everything else. Oh and one more small item is the fact that where I hunt we are in the area of the South Texas Drug corridor so one must look out for Coyotes (for the unknowing Coyotes is the name for the people that guide Illegals into the U.S.A. ) and Illegals that may be armed.

Sorry since I am on the subject I feel compelled to give this bit of warning to others that may hunt South Texas that was given to me by a TEXAS DPS officer that pulled me over just checking things down that way. He informed me that armed drug guards are on the rise coming into South Texas to help with the drug smugglers. And they have been caught armed with full auto rifles as well as look outs with 50 BMG barrets. So please be careful and keep on your toes. Also please do not go alone and have some form of communication if you are separated from others in your hunting party.

Sorry again one more thing. If you do run across anything that may be subject please keep handy the local TEXAS DPS office number. Contact them do not contact Boarder Patrol. I do not wish to go on a rant for this but there is a very good reason behind it. Please just believe me. Thank You for the public safety Message.

RevJim · « **Reply #6 on:** December 07, 2011, 05:26:14 AM »

Not to hijack your thread, but I am planning a 35 Whelen AI hog experiment of my own! I have the Woodleigh 310 softnose loaded over 55gr R15, BR2 primer, in fireformed remington cases. This is a good load even in a standard whelen. I am thinking of using it on a Russian Boar hunt in MI this Spring. You could save me alot of time if you used a similar loaded 310 Woodleigh and shot a bunch of those hogs down there??? Would you do it if I gave you some 310's to try? I am sure they will probably open up swell on wild cattle, and hogzilla, but anything in the 300+ range is unknown to me. ha.

drdougrx · « **Reply #7 on:** December 07, 2011, 07:17:47 AM »

The only time I shot a hog with a whelen was a few weeks ago in TX. Used a 225gr TSX....hit the hog....in the gut....my fault and lost it. On a more positive note...it did just fine on Nilgai and Oryx!

rickt300 · « **Reply #8 on:** December 07, 2011, 08:03:38 AM »

I most certainly would shoot to hit the far shoulder of a feral hog! This does not gaurantee the hog will go down on the spot though. Most of my hog hunting is done at night with the hogs moving or standing under feeders at odd angles. I usually cut them up and put them in the freezer so for myself I like to hit them in the neck or head, thru the ribs is just okay but they are some of the best part to eat. Hogs I hit in the shoulders, spine or hindquarter I give away. As far as tracking goes, looking for a hog in the dark with an led spotlight has to be considered by the smart a durn fool enterprise but us durn fools call it exciting. I do it with my 45 auto in one hand and a powerful Led spotlight in the other. Works so far! Thinking about upgrading the handgun to a 454 Casull Redhawk. A good blood trail is the only way to do this, if I don't have that I will go look for the hog in the morning. As for the 310 gr. Woodleigh's, how fast do they run with your load? I'd bet they will come through on any reasonable use they are put to. As for expanding you can bet a hog over 200 pounds will offer enough resistance to open your bullet up, They make footballs out of the hide of domestic hogs and a feral hogs hide has to be tougher. A thick layer of fat, then bones, even the rib bones are a lot more substantial than a deers and there is some eating meat on them too. On the older boars there is a thick sheild of what appears to be a cross between gristle and cartilidge over the shoulders and upper ribs which will expand any bullet that is going to expand. When you skin one out it sort of looks like a built in saddle. Someting to think about, hogs are really starting to be a problem down here and some agriculteral departments are helping people get on private property to hunt them. I guess someone needs to liason between the ag dept, the land owner and the hunter. The landowners really sweat out strangers hunting at night around their cattle. Me I wouldn't let it happen unless I was guiding or someone I know is.

RevJim · « **Reply #9 on:** December 07, 2011, 01:52:45 PM »

I was thinking the 310 round nose would work pretty well, and I agree, hogs are dense animals. I have always figured if a bullet would work well on a big hog ( break bones/exit) they will work well on elk. I spoke with a gentleman at Huntington Dies about the 310 Woodleigh today. They import them/sell them there. He said he used the similar 300gr in a 375 H&H and "they opened quite well" was his observation. I have to clock these 310's, my 35W AI has a "fast" barrel, and at 6000ft altitude I always get pretty good velocities. It seems to me I am crowding 2400, but if its only 2100, fine with me! This particular load shoots into .5" and hits only 1" to the left of my 250X load at 100yds, very usable in a pinch. I can send you some of these 225 Woodleigh round noses if you want to try them. I don't have enough of the 310's left, and my 358 BLR gets about 2300 with them, but I like the 225rn Hawk bullets better in it. PM me if interested Pard.

JesterGrin · « **Reply #10 on:** December 07, 2011, 03:51:35 PM »

RevJim I am sure that Many people including Rick and myself would like to try out those Woodleigh's but for myself I could not bring myself to do so. Since those bullets are darn expensive and it would take a bunch to work up a load for them. As not every rifle is the same. Each Rifle is a law unto itself.

You see I for one am cheap lol. That is why I use the Speer 250Gr Hot-Core and got the Speer 250Gr Grand Slams for less then the Hot-Core's on sale.

I am not sure if I mentioned this but I hope in about a month to cast up and try and work up some loads with the 280Gr RN/GC Lyman 358009 clone by NOE with RL-15 powder in my 35 Whelen.

rickt300 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 07, 2011, 08:31:45 PM »

I sure appreciate the offer but would prefer to trade you out of some of the 225 gr. bullets. I have a vast collection of 7mm and 30 caliber bullets along with plenty of virtually all of the more common diameters from 224 to 308. PM me and we can see if I have something you need to play with.

RevJim · « **Reply #12 on:** December 08, 2011, 02:08:43 AM »

PM sent on the 225rn Woodleighs my friend! I have enough left for load workup/hunting, you will like them I have loaded the 240gr Woodleigh in my 30.06, and it too shoots great. I could use it on the Russian, but my Mod 700 has been with me on some great hunts/memories, not to mention just a "killer" on game! ha. I sold a Remington 750 carbine in 35 Whelen. It shot great too, like a bolt gun, but really mangled the brass. Besides, I just like the looks of the Ackley 40deg shoulder, ha. It resembles the old 350 Rigby mag, which, btw, made it's laurels with a 225gr round nose going around 2400 or so! Gotta love a 35 cal anything!

anweis · « **Reply #13 on:** December 08, 2011, 03:46:00 AM »

Quote from: RevJim on December 07, 2011, 05:26:14 AM

55gr R15, BR2 primer,

I can tell you from serious experiments that BR2 is not the best primer for RL 15 and RL 19, especially not with charges over 45 grains and heavy bullets, regardless of caliber. . If you switched to FED 210 or CCI 200 you would have much better accuracy. I know, because i tried them in 6mm Remington, 30-06, 7x57, and .338 Federal.
Interestingly enough, powders with larger granules, such as IMR 4350 are ifnited better by the BR2, but even there i get better results from FED 210.
There is also a pretty fancy test posted on the web about several types of primers.

As far as the above large hog being shot with a HotCor bullet, remeber that HotCor bullets are soft and designed to expand quickly. If you want more penetration, either slow down the HotCor or use a tougher bullet.

RevJim · « **Reply #14 on:** December 08, 2011, 05:44:27 AM »

I have always used BR2 primers except for a very few loads in '06 size cases. I went to the BR primer back in 1988, when I noticed an ignition problem with Rem 9.5 in my old 1917 Enfield. I got that "unexplained vertical stringing, though, though small it bumfuzzled me. I kept reading, etc, and tried the BR primer, groups shrank right up. I also like the Fed 210M and all I use on magnum cases is the Fed 215M.
What kind of problems have you had with the BR primer and R15? This is interesting.

anweis · « **Reply #15 on:** December 08, 2011, 09:11:43 AM »

The BR2 work very well for me with IMR 4350 in 6mm Rem and a load of 40-41 grains, but i could not fine tune the loads with them when using RL 15 and 19 (several calibers). As soon as i switched the primers to FED 210, the groups shrank and stayed that way. I burned two pounds of powders, used 0.1 grain increments, played with seating depth, different bullets, nothing worked as i wanted. As soon as i switched to other primers, i had a "V8 moment" .
I used a IMR 4350/BR 2 cartridge to shoot a deer in near darkness, and the muzzle flame was impressive. I switched the otherwise identical load to Fed 210, and i have visibly less flash and better accuracy.
I have a folder in the man cave full of shot targets, with notes on the load and conditions scribbled next to the holes. I paired the otherwise identical loads, and the groups shot with loads with FED 210 always look better than those shot with BR 2. For example, i always have fliers 1" or 1.5" away from the cloverleaf groups with BR2, never with Fed 210 which seem more consistent and reliable when using fine grained RL powder.

RevJim · « **Reply #16 on:** December 08, 2011, 05:31:30 PM »

That is interesting indeed! I can't say that I've ever had a problem with BR2 primers, in fact, I have had better results with them than the regular CCI200. I do like the Fed 210M primer, but really couldn't tell any difference between it and the BR. I used BR4 primers in the 221 Fireball and 6x47. I get cloverleafs with the 55gr load behind that big Woodleigh, like a varmint rifle! ha. I am going to chrono that load soon, and I may just load up a few with the Fed 215M primer and back off a grain to start, see what happens! Thanks for the heads up. You know, while I have never had a problem with R15, I have gone round and round with R19! I don't even use it anymore! ha.

rickt300 · « **Reply #17 on:** December 08, 2011, 10:13:57 PM »

My present powder I use the most is H380 and I pop it with Wolf Magnum primers. I can get things moving right along with it too. I thought about going AI and would have if the regular Whelen gave missfires. My rifle is a tackdriver also with all but one bullet so far. I had no idea that the Whelen would be accurate enough for a 100 yard sparrow rifle. I also like IMR 4320 but no powder I have tried is really hard to get good groups with.

RevJim · « **Reply #18 on:** December 09, 2011, 02:09:19 AM »

Another great powder I have found, is H322! It's all I use it behind the Barnes 200X and now the 200TTSX. I have never used Wolf primers, but hey, they make about a gazillion rounds of ammo every week, so they must work! ha
I just paid right at $50 for another brick of BR2 primers, but I don't shoot near as much as I used to. I seldom shoot over 20rds, more like 9-12 in a load workup, and then later, I may fine tune my zero with a load. I still have ammo left from my '95 trip to SA.
I have shot some big zebra with both the 250 & 200x, they are like shooting a stump! I am looking forward to seeing what a big, heavy Woodleigh will do that big Russian boar! I have booked for an "Alpha Boar". I want one of the biggest boys on the place, ha! I can pay around $500 and shoot a hogzilla type here in Utah. They just go to the sale, buy one, and turn it loose on their place. I like to do that for a meat hog, but I have no desire to do that with a big Poland China or Duroc, that's alot of pork, and too much like shooting Farmer Dan's pig, ha.
I have some 250gr Speer HotCor and 250 Hornady rn, but I have never worked up a load for them in this AI. I will one day. I used 54gr of R15 behind the Hornady 25rn out of that Model 750 carbine though. Very accurate.

rickt300 · « **Reply #19 on:** December 09, 2011, 07:20:19 AM »

The story behind the hogs in King county is that hog prices fell so low that they weren't worth taking them to the auction. So one hog farmer who raised Spotted Poland China hogs and used some really gnarley looking supposedly Russian stock boars for breeding just let them go. I shoot a lot of white/black hogs out there along with a lot of dark brown/ black mottled hogs. They have some nice teeth too. If it weren't such a pain to remove them I would make a necklace with them. The boars look tall in the shoulders, small in the hams, have long snouts, straight ears and tails. I have killed several that were in the 400 pound range but I'd say the average is more like 275-325 pounds. Best for eating is less than 200 pounds and this year I have only seen one bigger than that.