Author Topic: 1891/59 Nagant carbine (Read 2771 times)

slngblde · « **on:** September 28, 2011, 09:11:07 PM »

I picked up one today and would like to know as much as I can about this model. I have not found a whole lot of info about this one yet. It was advertised as a m38, but as soon as I saw it I knew something was different about it. Its a numbers matching '43 izhesvk. Any idea as to value?

jlwilliams · « **Reply #1 on:** September 29, 2011, 02:00:39 AM »

"The Mosin-Nagant Rifle" by Terence Lapin is the best reference there is for all things Mosin Nagant.

The 91-59 was a post war cut down made from 91-30 rifles. They tend to be pretty good shooters. Production numbers are surprisingly not known. The first time the West fond out about the 'new' MN carbines was from defecting border guards who had them. (I thoght that was an interesting Cold War tid-bit worth sharing) They don't have any accomodation for a bayonet.

They tend to fetch a little more than most Russians but less than some of the Finns. IIRC I paid $175 about two or three years ago. Great little MN and the last one I'd part with.

woodchukhntr · « **Reply #2 on:** September 29, 2011, 06:06:42 AM »

I had one. It was a great shooter, but due to senior eyesight I sold it off. Check out this site: http://www.mosinnagant.net/

slngblde · « **Reply #3 on:** September 29, 2011, 09:52:41 AM »

Thanks for the info so far. Hopefully i can make it to the range first of the week to see how it does. If its no more accurate than my m44 i may just sell it off since i dont have a whole lot of room in the safe. It was an impulse buy, i tend to be bad about those when it comes to guns.

OldH&R156er · « **Reply #4 on:** September 29, 2011, 05:24:35 PM »

If you do decide to sell it, let me know. I would take it off your hands!

slngblde · « **Reply #5 on:** September 29, 2011, 07:55:11 PM »

My firearms a-dd has kicked, just found a 308 enfield so i probably am going to sell this one. A friend has first refusal, hes out of town for a few days. Will let you know what he decides.

Mikey · « **Reply #6 on:** September 30, 2011, 03:18:54 AM »

Slngblde: the only reason I would trade in a Mosin for a 308 Ishapore Enfield is because the Enfield is much easier to scope than the Mosin but the Mosin can be scoped without problem. I would consider trading the Mosin for a ultra pristine unissued SMLE No4 Mk1, but not a Ishapore in 308.

If you are thinking of a possible hunting rifle go with the Mosin. Ammo is quite plentiful and better than that you should shoot through a Ishapore - the Ish will take 7.62x51mm Nato ammo but I would notuse the 308 Winchester hunting ammo as that is loaded to higher pressures than the Nato round. The 7.62x54R Russian ammo, and their rifles, are much better. I have enjoyed the Mosin before and if I was not literally giving away some of my long guns (to younger hunting party members) and felt the absolute need for yet another mil-surp, I would get a Mosin.

As to what model # your Mosin is - couldn't tellya if it was a M38 or a M44 - I didn't see a bayonet on yours so it may be the later, whichis good because that dang bayo causes accuracy problems if you don't have it extended while shooting. I used to remove the bayonet and grind the mounting stud right down to the barrel contour and then I could group to half a dollar at 50m with open sights. HTH and jmtcw.

slngblde · « **Reply #7 on:** September 30, 2011, 07:37:37 AM »

Im well aware of the ammo availability on the mosins, i have about 1400 rounds of various stuff. from czech surplus to the 203 grain brown bear stuff. Roughly 1000 of it is russian surplus.
This gun was just an impulse buy, im not really a collector so collector value really doesnt mean much to me. If i cant take them out in the woods or on a 4 wheeler they are not much use for me. This gun was bought to mildly sporterize and put into a synthetic stock, but since the 91/59 is somewhat uncommon (this is the first ive ever seen) I wont be doing that to it. Ill just wait till i find a cheap 91/30 and use it for the project. This is the 5th nagant ive owned, the others were sold off because they were either somewhat rare and somebody wanted it worse than i did or it wasnt something i would modify for this project ive been wanting to do.
The ishapore is out, the ffl i use is out of town and dont feel like tracking down somebody else reliable. Most here charge way too much for transfers.

Ill try to get some close up shots of the markings on this carbine today

jlwilliams · « **Reply #8 on:** October 01, 2011, 03:47:54 AM »

It's probably best that you weren't able to close the deal on the Enfield. IMO, the Ishapore is the only Enfield that is really crap. Well, Khyber pass ones are crap too. The Ishapore Enfields don't accept standard British Commonwelth made Enfield parts. No parts back up and poor metalurgy (which pretty much guarantees that you'll need parts) make it the loser of the Enfield game.

The best way to identify the 91-59 verses an M38 or other MN carbine is the sight. You will see that some of the elevation marks are milled off of the 91-59. The '59s were cut down from existing rifles, not built with dedicated carbine sights. What they did during the conversion was just chuck the sights up and mill some of the markings away (and maybe replace or modify the ramps, not sure). Anyway, a close up of the rear sight will show for sure if it's a M38 or a 91-59. Also, post a pic of whatever cartouche or markings you see. That always helps.

When you put up your pics I'll compare them to mine and look in what reference books I have and tell you what I can.

slngblde · « **Reply #9 on:** October 01, 2011, 07:45:43 PM »

Finally got pictures of the markings on it, had to go buy a paint pen to highlight them.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #10 on:** October 02, 2011, 01:56:15 AM »

Nice. The the markings definitely say 91-59, so that's what it is. Like you said in the first post, it's got the Ishevsk crest and a proof mark. Looks like a good one.

I'll stop short of trying to guess the value. I haven't been actively looking and buying lately so I don't want to make an out-of date-guess. I will point out that most m38 carbines have been 'rode hard and put up wet', so a 91-59 is in some ways a better buy because (like this one) they tend to be in diecent shape.

OldH&R156er · « **Reply #11 on:** October 02, 2011, 05:14:27 AM »

Price wise and value they tend to run on par, maybe a tad more or less than the M38 and M44's, depending on condition.
The most important part is if the bore is good or not and being one of the Izhevsk arsenal made models from during the war, how well the machining was done, because of war era Mosins, with the need to crank them out fast, the Russians did hurry up jobs on most of those models, and the Izhevsk arsenal wasn't the best arsenal for quality to begin with, thats why so many collectors look for Tula arsenal made guns.
Heres a few examples for pricing.
http://www.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=10210763
http://www.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=9664068&oh=216543
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=242577316

Any more thoughts on if you are going to sell it?

Thanks!
Ken.

slngblde · « **Reply #12 on:** October 02, 2011, 08:08:29 AM »

Im hoping to make it to the range first of the week to try it out, if i dont make it by tuesday afternoon its closed the rest of the week to set up for a big pistol match.
I will decide then on whether im selling it or not.

I forgot to mention in the first post, the bore is good... rifling is sharp and there is no counter bore.

OldH&R156er · « **Reply #13 on:** October 02, 2011, 08:59:29 AM »

The one I would love to get a hold of is a 91/59 Tula made with a hex receiver, but those get quite a bit more pricey, but they seem to be more rare I imagine is why!

If you do decide to sell it, I go into the hospital on Friday Oct 7th and will be in there for several weeks during recovery, I have to have my esophagus removed "cancer"!

I am not a collector as such, just wanting a carbine type Mosin without the bayonet like my M44 has and the M38's are hard to find that have a good bore.
I have tossed around making one, I have an extra 91/30 that has a very pore bore that I could get another barrel for, like the one that AIM has, its a heavy barrel though and I haven't heard any feedback on how good a shooter those barrels make.
I wouldn't mind trying my hand at hand carving a stock, I have never tried it and think it would be fun to do!

And for those purists out there, yes I am talking doing a total Bubba!

slngblde · « **Reply #14 on:** October 02, 2011, 10:22:58 AM »

Those heavy barrels make really good shooters, if its the one from the czech machine gun that tn guns reworks. Im planning on ordering a couple soon just to have. I know if i wait they will sell out and then ill have to start from scratch on something else. Thats the barrel i want to use on my sporter type project. It will get quite a bit of material turned off in a lathe though, dont want or need a 5 lb or so barrel.
If i do sell the 91/59 im not in a huge rush to sell it.

OldH&R156er · « **Reply #15 on:** October 02, 2011, 01:31:06 PM »

Yes it is, but I told you wrong, it was Classic arms that I saw them at!
http://www.classicarms.us/firearms.htm

I know what you mean about the weight, those barrels are really beefy.
Old friend of mine owns a full machine shop, so that was my thought as well was to have him turn one down to something more reasonable!

slngblde · « **Reply #16 on:** October 24, 2011, 07:36:16 PM »

Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to shoot this one yet, hopefully will latter part of the week. I have decided to sell it off, I'm not really a collector and I don't generally keep a gun I wouldn't take in the woods. This ones too nice for that. I am buying a 91/30 by the end of the week and its getting cut down to roughly the same length as this one. I may end up cutting the barrel to 16.5, that depends on how it affects the balance of the gun though. This guns what inspired that idea, the balance is much better than my m44 is...that bayonet adds a good bit apparently. Anybody know what the m44 bayonet weighs? oldh&r156er first shot at buying , if he decides not to then I'll put it in the classifieds.

woodchukhntr · « **Reply #17 on:** October 25, 2011, 05:59:58 AM »

PM sent

OldH&R156er · « **Reply #18 on:** October 30, 2011, 09:42:53 AM »

Its open, I am out of the runnin fer it cause its goin to be a couple months before I can buy any other guns.
I have to do a remodel on our bathroom, had a major leak and also, since it is going to be torn apart, the wife wants to make some changes.
so, all my money for a spell is tied, I just hope I can make the remodel her Christmas present, cause there ain't goin to be any money left over to buy her nuttin!

slngblde · « **Reply #19 on:** November 04, 2011, 03:19:05 PM »

Apparently something happened with my photobucket account, those pictures are gone now. I did not have them saved elsewhere.

1911crazy · « **Reply #20 on:** December 08, 2011, 08:16:54 AM »

I have two of these, one is in its unissued condition while the other was made into a sporter by a good gun smith. At first i thought it was an m44 but with the rear sight being milled off a tad it matches my other m91/59 perfectly. It has a really hairy trigger on the sporter.

Every so often we see these m91/59's and m38's offered for sale here, there doesn't seem to be a big run of them numbers wise. At first with never seeing any of them i never thought i would see one for sale. I like the m91/59 and m38 better than the m44 because there is no bayonet on the muzzle.

slngblde · « **Reply #21 on:** December 08, 2011, 11:43:08 AM »

I liked the balance of this gun a lot which led to me making my own version of it out of a '38 tula 91/30, but i cut the barrel to 17.5" on it. Im taking the 91/59 to the gunshow this weekend hoping to trade or sell it.