45/70 or 9.3x74 caliber pros & cons

[Camba]

I had been wanting a combination gun or double rifle gun for years but they are never in the caliber I would like to have them.  However, I am growing older and I just don't want to look back one day and regret never having (owning) one of those guns.  First, let me tell you what my preference calibers would be:
In the combo gun, I would like to have an O/U 12GA or 20GA over a 44 Mag, or a 45 Colt, or a 357 Max.
In the double rifle I would prefer 308W/308W or 30-30/30-30, or 357mx/357max
Anyway, reality is that they are not available in those chamberings so I give up and look at what is at hand:

I like the Sabatti double rifles imported by Cabelas and the dilema is in these two calibers:  45/70 or 9.3mmx74.  Granted, both calibers will bring down just about any big game in North America and even a in Africa with a few exceptions.  so the pros and cons I am looking for are not related on killing power but more in the practicallity and cost of shooting it.  Because I am more familiar (by name) on the 45/70 I tend to give more weight to that but I prefer less "kicking" punishment.  Finding reloading components is another factor.

But.  Since I have no experience with neither of both calibers and double rifles, I would appreciate any information that can minimize cost and help me to make a decision on one of these guns.  I had also been tuning to the Spartan double rifles in 30-06 and 45/70 as well for lower cost but I am hesitant to the weight.

OK, it is all yours.  Place your opinions.  Thak you.

Camba

[dougk]

Hi Camba,
what are you going to be using your gun for?

Doug

[Drilling Man]

  I think the REAL problem, is to get a Sabatti or Ruski doesn't have problems of their own.

  Many of the Ruski's are just plain poorly made need lots of tinkering with, and many of the Sabbati's are going back to Cabella's with their own set of problems.

  I'd be looking at better choises if you want a quality S&S.

  DM

[jlwilliams]

  Between those two choises, I'd go 45-70 just because it's so much more pevalent in the US.

  I imagine you aren't likely to shoot thousands of rounds a year out of it and probably won't be taking it out in the deep woods for a year or more and need to walk into the first bait and tackle you find when you come out of the woods looking for ammo.  Ammo availability for a rifle like that is relative.  Feeding a double isn't like feeding an AR.  None the less, the rifle will be worth more down the line and be more sellable (should you or your heirs decide that's what should be done) if it's in an available round.  45-70 is an American heritage cartridge and will be available as long as rifle ammo is available in this country.  45-70 is also a round that you may have or may someday get more guns in.  A good deal pops up on a Guide Gun maybe you pick it up since you have ammo.  9.3 is hugely popular in Europe, but here it's kind of an odd duck.  You'd be stocking ammo for that gun and that gun alone.  You'd have to stock up because you mon't ever find it on clearance (if you find it at all).  Anywhere.

  For your combo gun, you aren't completely SOL on your caliber preferance.  IIRC, the Savage combo gun is available in 30-30 over 20g.  The 30-30 has a rim that's really close to the rim on the .357; not interchangeable but within working distance.  That means that you could rebore or replace the 30-30 barrel with a .357 barrel and the firing pin would line up where it needs to be and the ejector could be fiddled to work.  Not a cheap project, but worth discussing with a gunsmith or two.  Maybe it could be done for a price you can live with.  Point is, it's possable.

[Drilling Man]

  I don't find 9.3x74R ammo all that hard to get...  Right now it's made by Norma, RWS, Nosler, Provi, and Hornandy that i know of, and i saw several boxes in Cabella's the other day.  It's easy to reload for, and numerous bullets choises are available too.

  Personally, i'd choose the 9.3 over the 45/70 and in fact i did, a couple times over now...  lol

  DM

[jlwilliams]

  With "Drilling Man" for a handle, I'm not surprised you favor the 9.3x74.  That cartridge and those rifles go together like....I dunno...like two things that go real well together.

  I'll admit bias.  I like the 45-70 cartridge.  I probably don't see much 9.3 ammo for sale because I just plain don't look for it.  They are both fine rounds, but given the choise I'd go 45-70 because I would.

  I know I was drooling over those doubles back when Remington was importing them a couple of years ago.  As far as I know the guns you are talking about are the same ones I looked at then.  The classic European double rifle in the classic American heavy caliber round really apeals to me.  I thought I'd let them slip from my mind, but maybe this thread will get me looking at them again.  My wife will be thrilled.

[Camba]

Douk,

I will be using this rifle for deer/bear/paper, and other North American big (and small ) game.  I would prefer to have a versatil rifle that I can reload for without having to sell the house to feed it with.

I am in my early fifties and I told my wife that if I will own one of those rifles, it better be now so I can enjoy it for a while instead of buying it for someone else.

I do like the 45-70 caliber.  I am planning of using it all the time as much as I can.  I am not familiar at all with the 9.3x74 caliber but it seems that I should not over look at it before more information is available.  I do hate heavy kickers and I prefer to load them down to a more manageable shooting velocities.  I supposed if I get a couple of hundred shells of those cartridges I can reload them quite a few times before I need to discard them.  Right?

What kind of velocities and pressures you see in the 9.3x74?

Camba

[keith44]

I am wanting a 45-70 double myself.  I already own and shoot, and reload for two single barrel rifles.  I can tell you with absolute certainty that the reloader can put in as much kick or take out nearly all the kick of a 45-70.  One of my rifles is a single shot "Handi Rifle" built by NEF.  It weighs about 4.5 pounds, and with open sights, and no recoil reducer, the low pressure loads do not kick as much as a .410 shotgun.  If resale is ever a remote possibility do not buy a euro caliber.  I will readily admit the superior killing power of the 9.3 x74R or even the 9.3 x 6(?) rimless.  For the most versatile round, though, I would stick with the .45-70. 

[dougk]

Douk,

I will be using this rifle for deer/bear/paper, and other North American big (and small ) game.  I would prefer to have a versatil rifle that I can reload for without having to sell the house to feed it with.

Camba

Camba,

Your requirements for a very versatile gun are interesting and appear to fit the bill for a drilling or combo gun rather than a double rifle.

Drilling Offers:
  - 2 shotgun barrels
  - 1 rifle barrel
  - Option for a .22lr or .22WMR barrel insert into one of the shotgun barrels for small game.

A Combo gun
  - 1 shotgun barrel
  - 1 rifle barrel

Double Rifle
  - 2 Rifle barrels

You might want to look at expanding your caliber options as there are many rimmed cartridges that will cover your requirements and they are not too expensive to reload or purchase.

There are many good combo rifles on the market the Valmet 412 is the one I have standardized on.  In your range the Valmet was made in 9.3x74r DR, 9.3x74r/12 ga, .30-06/12 ga, .308/12 ga,, 7x65r/12 ga (Tikka).

There are several good deals on a drilling, but you should expect to put $1,600 into one with out a scope and about $900 into one with a scope.  The calibers are endless.  Also, I looked that the original selling price of a drilling and into days dollar they would be between $8,000-$12,000.

DrillingMan is the expert on the 9.3x74r cartridge and he has done work on modifying the cartridge.

For bear hunting (I have never hunted bear) I would like the option of having one or 2 shotgun slugs as back up.  My 2 cents.

Doug

[Reverend Recoil]

I hunt wild boar with a Ruger No.1, 9.3x74R.  It knocks the squeal right out of them.  Factory ammo costs $60-100/box of 20 but can be reloaded as any other cartridge.  Speer 270gr and Priv Partizan 286gr bullets cost no more than 0.458" bullets.  The lowest cost bullets are cast lead for either caliber.  I have killed many big boar with a 245gr paper patched 0.358" cast bullet.  9.3x74R brass costs more.  I have had good service with RWS brass.  200 of them will cover years of shooting.  The best thing about the 9.3x74R over the 45-70 is the moderate recoil and the much less bullet drop at 250yd.  You have a difficult decision.  I suggest you get both double rifles.  Maybe you could get one double rifle with two sets of barrels.  Then again you could get one double rifle in one of the two cartridges and a Ruger No.1 in the other.    One more thing.  Do not overlook the many fine combination guns in 16ga/8x57mm or 16ga/303 British.  There, now you can sleep tonight.

[keith44]

I hunt wild boar with a Ruger No.1, 9.3x74R.  It knocks the squeal right out of them.  Factory ammo costs $60-100/box of 20 but can be reloaded as any other cartridge.  Speer 270gr and Priv Partizan 286gr bullets cost no more than 0.458" bullets.  The lowest cost bullets are cast lead for either caliber.  I have killed many big boar with a 245gr paper patched 0.358" cast bullet.  9.3x74R brass costs more.  I have had good service with RWS brass.  200 of them will cover years of shooting.  The best thing about the 9.3x74R over the 45-70 is the moderate recoil and the much less bullet drop at 250yd.  You have a difficult decision.  I suggest you get both double rifles.  Maybe you could get one double rifle with two sets of barrels.  Then again you could get one double rifle in one of the two cartridges and a Ruger No.1 in the other.    One more thing.  Do not overlook the many fine combination guns in 16ga/8x57mm or 16ga/303 British.  There, now you can sleep tonight.

Best advice yet, with real world experience.

[dougk]

Given what I know now I would recommend a Drilling in 16x16/7x65r, Valmet 412 in 12/(9.3x74r or 30-06).  In the 7x65R I found 6 boxes for RWS Brenneke Torpedo (TIG) otherwise I would have gone with the Norma Oryz.  in the 9.3x74R and .30-06 I use the Norma Oryx.  The .30-06 Norma 180gr Oryx has brought down a 400 lb hog.

[Drilling Man]

  First of all, if i was going to buy a S&S DR, i'd step UP to a used Chapuis in 9.3x74R.  It's not that much more than a Sabatti, and you will get a heLL of a lot better made/regulated rifle.

  Having said that: The resale on a 9.3x74R in a decent DR is MUCH higher than a 45/70, because you have a different set of buyers.  These buyers want the 9.3 for it's superior killing power, and KNOW that the Chapuis is a MUCH better built DR.

  I've fired thousands of 9.3 rounds, it's a VERY good hunting cartridge that with it's lower pressures is perfect for a break open type rifle.  It makes a much better DR than a 45/70 does, for a hunting rifle.

  Keep in mind, a DR is ment to be shot with one load/velocity, so it's not a good rifle if you are thinking of loading it up for one purpose, and loading it down for another...

  BTW, i favor the 9.3 for what it is, not because of my name.  I don't even own a drilling chambered in 9.3.

  DM

[dougk]

  First of all, if i was going to buy a S&S DR, i'd step UP to a used Chapuis in 9.3x74R.  It's not that much more than a Sabatti, and you will get a heLL of a lot better made/regulated rifle.

  Having said that: The resale on a 9.3x74R in a decent DR is MUCH higher than a 45/70, because you have a different set of buyers.  These buyers want the 9.3 for it's superior killing power, and KNOW that the Chapuis is a MUCH better built DR.

  I've fired thousands of 9.3 rounds, it's a VERY good hunting cartridge that with it's lower pressures is perfect for a break open type rifle.  It makes a much better DR than a 45/70 does, for a hunting rifle.

  Keep in mind, a DR is ment to be shot with one load/velocity, so it's not a good rifle if you are thinking of loading it up for one purpose, and loading it down for another...

  BTW, i favor the 9.3 for what it is, not because of my name.  I don't even own a drilling chambered in 9.3.

  DM

thanks DM for sharing your insights.  I have been looking for a drilling chambered in 9.3x74r and have only found the Luftwaffe survival drilling which is selling for over $10k.  Based on all this discussion I think I might take out the 12/9.3x74r this week when I look for feral hogs.

BTW drillingman when did you change your name to 9.3?   
 

[jlwilliams]

  DR, I hope you didn't interpret my previous post as any sort of a jab.  It's a shortcoming of internet forums that we can't see each other or hear tone of voice. That makes things some times come across with some edge where it isn't meant.  Anyway, I hope I didn't rub you, it wasn't my intent. 

 
 

[Drilling Man]

  Chapuis in 9.3x74R,



  The ammo is Nosler factory loads, loaded with their 286 NP's,





  These really are a "best buy" in a well built DR.

  DM

[Camba]

I don't know which of the comments to respond to; but they are all great!  I have to watch out when I get up and not slip in my own drool  LOL.

I am also fun of the combination guns too.  The only combo rifle I had was the Savage 12ga/30-30.  It was great gun but I did not like the "looks" of it.  If I don't remember, the scope mount blocked the open sights.  That was not good for me because I wanted to take the scope out some times or put them back in other ocasion and it required a new sighting for the scope.
I am just a sucker for the fine european guns.  One of my dad's friends (a German guy) has an over under 16ga/44 mag made by Krupp company and I shot that combo gun a few times.  I always liked that gun because it is the fact that you have choices of what to hunt based on the game that shows up.

The "big" doubles do not atract me too much because I hate to be kicked.  I never fire anything larger than the 45/70 (well, maybe a 50 cal muzzle loader if that counts) simply because I don't enjoy the bone busting feeling.

As far as the Valmet rifle.  I do like the reviews of it.  I don't like the gap between barrels; but the Valmet definitely looks much appealing than the Savage.  If I would go with a combo, it would be a 20 or a 12ga/308win. or over a 358 win.  Without realizing, I did exactly what Reverend Recoil predicted.

Camba

[wsjones]

Buy one yet?!
 
You got some great first and second hand advice on this one and I'm curious if you pulled the trigger on one or the other yet (bad pun intended).
I went through sort of the same decision making process a couple years ago and ended up with a No. 1 in 93.x74, with which I'm very happy.  Ammo and components are very easy to come by and the rifle's a dream to shoot, although I haven't killed anything with it yet.
 
Nothing wrong with the 45-70 (got one, like it) and it would have been the choice if the Spartan/Remington single option had ever panned out.  The doubles, even Sabatti, were out of my price range unfortunately.  So I settled on the Ruger single and was torn between the 405 Win, 450-400, and 9.3 available at the time.  The 450-400 would have probably topped the 9.3 for cool, barely, but significantly more recoil and probably more importantly, price of shells, brass, and components, pushed me to the 9.3.  Can't wait to actually shoot something with it.  In the meantime, I am confident of having the most novel rifle in camp where I hunt.
 
Update please!  -WSJ