Author Topic: not to impressed (Read 4502 times)

Brithunter · « **Reply #30 on:** September 10, 2011, 12:13:52 AM »

Hmmm interesting as I read it that Button rifling was adopted because it's quick and cheap. As you point out Hammer Forging is very expensive to set up for not only the machine which is large and heavy and would require special floor pad I would assume to isolate it from effecting other machines but then the formers cannot be cheap either. Drop one of those and I'll bet is breaks or causing a crack which then will break in use.

The most modern cut rifling I am aware of is the Pratt & Whitney twin head machines from the 1940's. I suppose some others must have made more modern versions by now. Interestingly enough Lothar Walther uses the Button rifling method. This is from their web site:-

[/color][/color][/size][/font]

Quote

Rifle Barrel[/color] Blanks
[/size]The production of barrel blanks at Lothar Walther is accomplished in state of the art facilities. Our rifle barrels are produced using button rifling. We were the first to use this method and it has been in use since 1925. Our materials are specifically engineered to be used in our process. Our Normal Steel, what every one calls "Chrome-Moly" is a special alloy which is very fine grained. It will perform in all situations and will generate phenomenal accuracy. Our Stainless Steel is of a very special type which will give longer barrel life and can be used in all contours. It far exceeds the capabilities of 416R. We manufacture calibers which range from 17 caliber to 600 caliber. Most calibers are stocked in both normal steel and our stainless steel. The charts below give our standard stock barrel blanks. Even with this large selection, there are still many types of barrels which are not shown. There are straight octagon barrels in some calibers. Black powder barrels are available. If you do not see what you are looking for, give us a call, we may have something special hidden away just for you.[/size]

Interesting how they began using the button method back in 1925 which is some 20 years at least prior to Remington adopting it.................................... sorry [/color]Swampy but Remington are again followers and not leaders. If you read Remingtons history it says Mike Walker improved the way they did it. Not sure how perhaps they used the push method rather than the pull method? and it's only their opinion, or has it been proven that Walker's/Remingtons idea/way was actually better or was it just cheaper? depending on how you look at it making the operation cheaper could be seen as an improved method.

The hammer forging method was developed to produce tougher, longer, lasting barrels initially for the MG42 which positively ate barrels due to it's very high rate of fire.

Before today I had not read that front page on Walther's site so thank you as I have learned something new about gunmaking history.

Oh and Swampman don't forget to pick up your loyalty check from Big green once again your blind fanaticism has earnt it

.

Brithunter · « **Reply #31 on:** September 10, 2011, 12:40:06 AM »

Ahhhhh with respect to this statement:-

Quote

Several other brands with hammer forged barrels will stay with the Remingtons made recently as far accuracy goes, as the other manufacturers are catching up in the accuracy department.
Again Hammer forging is cheaper than button rifling not always better otherwise.

Perhaps parkergunshop, you can explain how come the Parker-Hale M85 with it's hammer forged barrel in trials out performed and out shot the Remington sniper rifle?

It was one of the reason why Modular Industries acquired Parker-Hale, Modular Industries is of course an American concern, however due to political manouvers it was never adopted. Of course the highly dubious business practices of Modular Industries and it's subsidery Bremmer Arms which they set up to re-manufacture the Springfield 03 and the 03 National match rifle it and Parker-Hale were shut down rapidly

. The other reason for buying P-H was of course they thought they were also acquiring Smith & Wesson who at that time owned by the same Holding company. Oh yes P-H was of course wound up due tot his back in

Also why is it that a lot of target rifles use hammer forged barrels?

As for bench rest I can not see what the point is really $:-\$ if your going to build a rifle that weighs about 20lbs then why not just make a mount and concrete it in place and test the ammunition that way? It's a bit like Formula One racing.. Ok it has a engine and wheels and is a car but it'a about as much use for normal use as a chocolate fire guard

.

Swampman · « **Reply #32 on:** September 10, 2011, 01:42:22 AM »

I've looked at the Howas and worked on them. They did a pretty good job of trying to copy the Model 700 but why not just buy the real thing. Nothing shoots like a Remington. Firearms are about the last area where the US completely rules in the accuracy dept.

parkergunshop · « **Reply #33 on:** September 10, 2011, 06:27:37 AM »

Brithunter wrote:
Hmmm interesting as I read it that Button rifling was adopted because it's quick and cheap. As you point out Hammer Forging is very expensive to set up for not only the machine which is large and heavy and would require special floor pad I would assume to isolate it from effecting other machines but then the formers cannot be cheap either. Drop one of those and I'll bet is breaks or causing a crack which then will break in use.

Brithunter, Remington makes tens of thousands of barrels per year, if the labor saving is $50.00 per barrel a low ball number, then the machine pays for itself after 20,000 barrels are made.
Yes, all the various barrel making processes were pioneered in Europe and adopted in the U. S. as noted Remington a la Mike Walker was the first to push vs pull the button through the barrel when button rifling.
Except for the unlimited class benchrest shooters are more limited by the human factor, doping the wind, reading mirage, staying calm under pressure than by their barrels, most of the barrels made for the benchrest shooters are very accurate and capable of one hole groups under 1/10 of an inch with the proper bullets, powder, primer loads, if the shooter does his part. You can't imagine the pressure of looking though your scope at a less than 1/10 in group after 4 shots knowing that the 5th one may blow the whole thing. I have known benchrest shooters who took tranqulizers (doping) to help with the stress.
Also as noted earlier by Lloyd, barrel accuracy can be improved by careful lapping of the bore by someone who knows how to do it, hammer forged barrels should be smoother than button rifled or cut rifled barrels due to the hammering process. I have had J.B.'s bore paste in my shop for 30 years now, it can be used to speed up barrel break in and clean up rough bores.
It seems that Lloyd got a rough barrel on his Vangard for some reason, maybe a bad rough deep hole drilling before hammer forging the barrel. In either process of barrel making the deep hole has to be done to rough in the bore.

parkergunshop · « **Reply #34 on:** September 10, 2011, 10:32:38 AM »

Brithunter wrote:
As for bench rest I can not see what the point is really $:-\$ if your going to build a rifle that weighs about 20lbs then why not just make a mount and concrete it in place and test the ammunition that way? It's a bit like Formula One racing.. Ok it has a engine and wheels and is a car but it'a about as much use for normal use as a chocolate fire guard ::)

For your info here are the individual match winners for the Sporter Class at the NBRSA Nationals in 2010:
Sporter Class caliber not under .23 not weighing over 10 1/2 pounds inclusive of sights.

	Match Winners
Match1

Mark Buettgen[/t][/t] 0.139

Match2

Mike Ratigan[/t] 0.116

Match3

John Horn[/t] 0.083

Match4

Tony Boyer[/t] 0.147

Match5

Stephen Hall[/t] 0.120

[/t] This is for 5 shots at 100 yards
The winner for 5 matches aggregrate:

Rank	Shooter	Match1	Match2	Match3	Match4	Match5	Agg
1

LOWELL HOTTENSTEIN [/t][/t] 0.180 0.180 0.116 0.209 0.273
0.1916

Note the .083 group by John Horn

Brithunter · « **Reply #35 on:** September 10, 2011, 12:23:33 PM »

parkergunshop,

I understand what bench rest is and have a buddy in St Louis who competes in 600 yd Bench rest and Hi power matches. In fact he built up a new rifle in late 2009 or early 2010 in 6.5x284 with a Broughton barrel, fact is he built to rifles for slightly different uses. He had a certain top gunsmith do the fitting and chambering with the reamer that he brought and both are as near identical chambering as can be.

However the point of it still passes me by. Back in 2004 I think it was he came 2nd in the light gun class for the 600 yd MO state championship using a Savage 112BV with Lija 3 groove barrel chambered in .243 AI.

Meanwhile I find anyone who has to take drugs to compete rather sad.

Back in 2003/4 he had to get the same gunsmith to re-build a Weather MkV in 30-378 WM as despite several trips back to Weatherby's it refused to group anyhting like consistantly. The "factory" replaced the barrel, stock bedded it and it was still rubbish. The smith took it stripped it and basically blue printed it to make it shooot as it was supposed to do from new. I told Steve that Stan should use it as a boat anchor as before spending all that dosh on it that's all it was good for, that and making lots of noise. Stan was not impressed by my suggestion

.

Oh yes I do not know which method Howa uses to make their barrels. originally it would have been cut rifled as Howa are in fact an old well established firm and made rifles for the Imperial Japanese Army during WW2 I think you will find. According to their web site they began in 1907. Not sure when gun production started.

Swampman · « **Reply #36 on:** September 10, 2011, 01:58:12 PM »

You guys are funny....

Brithunter · « **Reply #37 on:** September 10, 2011, 11:23:29 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on September 10, 2011, 01:58:12 PM

You guys are funny....

As per usual the Swampman has forgotten to take his meds.

Us funny.......................................... go take a good long hard look in the mirror swampy. In there you will find the reaon that moost of the folks here at GBO laugh at you. Not with you but AT YOU

.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #38 on:** September 12, 2011, 02:19:47 AM »

well i won a 06 vanguard at the whitetails unlimited banquet sat night. I looked at it and just couldnt warm up to another one after the way they treated me so to the gun shop it went and was traded for a 7mag hawkeye ruger.

Brithunter · « **Reply #39 on:** September 12, 2011, 03:27:43 AM »

Congratulations on the win

.

Sheesh wish I had that sort of luck .......................... now where is the green eyed emoticon?

Cannot say I blame you for trading it after your experience. Hope you get one well with the new Ruger.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #40 on:** September 13, 2011, 01:41:10 AM »

posted in wrong area

Swampman · « **Reply #41 on:** September 13, 2011, 03:25:36 AM »

Quote from: Lloyd Smale on September 12, 2011, 02:19:47 AM

well i won a 06 vanguard at the whitetails unlimited banquet sat night. I looked at it and just couldnt warm up to another one after the way they treated me so to the gun shop it went and was traded for a 7mag hawkeye ruger.

Good trade!

tatonka · « **Reply #42 on:** September 14, 2011, 04:25:22 AM »

With every new gun I purchase, I run an undersized patch and jag through the barrel very slowly (I don't own a borescope) and check for a rough bore. I have had barrels that wouldn't shoot well due to a rough bore. If I feel any roughness, I usually will hand lap the barrel. I have resorted to flitz paste on a patch until the roughness is gone. In every rifling process, there is usually a little "burr" in the bore. Firelapping is ok but I prefer to feel the bore before I can see the results on paper. This has worked on guns that I purchased that were realatively new but would not shoot well for the original owner. I've purchased many magnums over the years that were said to be shot out by the original owner only to find out that the bore was severly fouled with lead or copper. It has been my experience that a gun will usually require a little "polish/shooting before it achieves its potential. Good shooting

Brithunter · « **Reply #43 on:** September 16, 2011, 01:26:42 AM »

Yes I brought a 1960 vintage BSA Majestic in 270 Win and looking through the bore and the rifling at the muzzle I thought it would need a new barrel fitted and brought it with that in mind. However on getting it home and test shooting it as you do then cleaning it I noticed it was copper fouled to started to clean it to remove the copper. It took a whole weekend of P-H 009 Nitro solvent being allowed to sit in the bore for 1/2 hr then wiping out and two treatments of Forest Foaming Bore Cleaner to eat the copper.

I doubt that BSA had been more that wiped through in it's entire life. By the time I was done the visible rifling had doubled in depth and on re-testing it shot quite respectably so never got that new barrel. BSA's of that vintage have cut rifled bores that were lapped at the factory as a normal production method unlike today were lapping is seem as a "Custom" option only. In the late 1960's BSA switched to hammer Forging for some of their centre fire barrels.

His lordship. · « **Reply #44 on:** December 21, 2011, 03:01:53 PM »

I had been planning to buy a Vangard at the local Academy a few months ago in .243, they only had the display model and no scope rail mounts for it, I had a bad feeling and left. Then started reading on the problems they have with their barrels, bought a Mossberg 4 X 4 in .270. Very accurate gun, cleans up easy but with the muzzle break hiding the front part of the barrel I can't see if it copper fowls much. The 4 times to the range I have been hitting it with Sweets 7.62 cleaner just in case each trip, not much copper color that I can see on the patch. I usually use the Sweets once every other trip or so with my other rifles as I can see the copper build up on the lands and grooves.

I remember reading that Browning had barrel problems in the early 90's with their A-bolt, I chose to get another brand around that time due to that, although Browning was dealing with the issue. I am glad I read this forum, won't be getting a Vangard for my next rifle.

Swampman · « **Reply #45 on:** December 21, 2011, 03:33:33 PM »

There's no real good reason to clean a modern rifle barrel.

Rock Home Isle · « **Reply #46 on:** December 21, 2011, 03:47:30 PM »

Quote from: Lloyd Smale on August 04, 2011, 10:45:32 AM

Ive got a 257 vanguard that copper fouls in about 8 rounds. the first couple 3 shot groups are fine then they open up fast and by the time you get 12 rounds down the barrel the groups are in the 5 inch range. Clean it then and its full of copper. I sent it to weatherby and they wont do anything. they say because i put a timney trigger and bedded it which i did because of the irratic way it shoots and the trigger was done because theres wouldnt adjust down past 5 lbs. Looks like i may have to rebarrel it as i just cant live with cleaning it after every group i shoot. Im sure not impressed with weatherbys customer service. I sure wont buy another. to get warantee coverage on a weatherby you cant just sent it to them. You have to go through a autorized service center and up here its gander mountain. The local gander mountain sent it to there regional gunsmith and he agrees with me that it definately isnt right but weatherby wont do a thing. Its pretty convient they do it that way and put a buffer between there customers and there service policys.

So have you tried to RE-Breakin the Barrel? That may solve your probelms and besides what have you got to loose?

Shoot one round...then completely clean the barrel and shoot another round...repeat until you have shot 5 rounds. Then shoot 3 rounds in a row and clean...and shoot 3 more rounds and clean...until you have shot 15 rounds.

After this tedious garbage is done...shoot 10 rounds in a row and see if it isn't better or totally fixed...I hope that it is.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #47 on:** December 22, 2011, 06:35:46 AM »

Found the best cure for it. I ordered a new cdl in 257 and brought the vanguard to the local gunshop and put it up on consignment.

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #48 on:** December 22, 2011, 12:11:14 PM »

Lloyd, how soon do you think the CDL will be in?

Had a couple .257 Wea. over the years killed a bunch of coyotes with them and some antelope, mulies and whitetails...kind of have a itch to have another...the CDL looks like a winner...have bought a new factory rifle in years...

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #49 on:** December 23, 2011, 02:11:16 AM »

Last weekend I took two of the newer Howa's I have out to play with. Shooting from the porch rail from my cabin across the field to the start of the back ridge line is 200 yd. (205 this time where I stuck the target frame). The stainless Hogue stocked 22-250 laid 3 of the Win. white box 45 gr. load into a 3 shot group that mics right at .83 in. The little camo 7mm-08 package with the Niko 3-10 scope that came with the rifle was doing under 2 in with some Hornady Light Mags 139 gr SST bullets, about 1.5 in with Fed Fusion, 3 shot groups. I had two of the Win Fail Safe 140's left in the shooting box, those two made a .66 group. The Camo rifle is one of the newer ones whith the side of the receiver scalloped and the 2-stage trigger. The 3 shot group from the 22-250 is almost a perfect triangle, the 2 shots from the 7-08 are side by side. I have others, 223 Vanguard that shoots bug sized groups, 257 Weatherby that has shot well so far, haven't played with her much yet, couple of 243's that are also grouping under an inch at 100 for the kids. What's not to be impressed about? Several of these I bought on sale for 359-369 dollar range, adjusted the trigger, slapped on a scope, tried a couple of different loads and found sub-MOA shooters. I break in barrels by shooting them and cleaning when I get around to it. Every company makes a lemon from time to time, (some make enough to set up a national lemonade stand

), but I have to say I've had better luck with getting real shooters with the Howa/Vanguard lines than any other. No brag here, but I say that with well over 100 firearms setting in my safes at this time, have some experience to draw on.

DP

ironglow · « **Reply #50 on:** December 23, 2011, 02:18:01 AM »

Quote from: Lloyd Smale on August 22, 2011, 10:43:17 AM

just got done shooting some loads in mine after i spent some time firelapping the barrel. What a differnce!! Groups were about cut in half and no more fouled barrel in 10 shots. As a matter of fact it shot a moa group with the barrel so hot you couldnt touch it and it had been fouled by 25 shots. .

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Amazing to see how fire-lapping improved your bedding job and the Timney trigger !

What a cop-out on Weatherby's part...I'll file that for future reference !

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #51 on:** December 23, 2011, 05:52:06 AM »

Well ironglow at first i thought the firelapping had done the trick but i think i just got luck that day. Over the next few shooting sessions the problem cropped up again but not as bad. thats why i gave up on it. I pulled the timney trigger out of it just in case i decide to get one of those 240 vanguards and took off my 4x12 leupold and put it on the for sale rack for 400 bucks. Problem is around here not many guys are going to jump on something as exotic as a stainless 257. Most buyers around here are more into semi auto remingtons with tasco scopes

BBF · « **Reply #52 on:** December 23, 2011, 10:15:09 AM »

The Auto Bangers I can see, the Chinese Tasco not so much.

ironglow · « **Reply #53 on:** December 24, 2011, 12:13:12 AM »

Quote from: Lloyd Smale on December 23, 2011, 05:52:06 AM

Well ironglow at first i thought the firelapping had done the trick but i think i just got luck that day. Over the next few shooting sessions the problem cropped up again but not as bad. thats why i gave up on it. I pulled the timney trigger out of it just in case i decide to get one of those 240 vanguards and took off my 4x12 leupold and put it on the for sale rack for 400 bucks. Problem is around here not many guys are going to jump on something as exotic as a stainless 257. Most buyers around here are more into semi auto remingtons with tasco scopes

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Lloyd;
I was only promoting a bit of irony, when I said that about the trigger and bedding.. I don't believe for a moment that the Timney or bedding hurt the accuracy at all.
I used centerfire autos when I was in the military, but I tend more toward other actions, especially single shots...but 'to each his own'.

Dave in WV · « **Reply #54 on:** December 24, 2011, 03:58:36 AM »

To me the triangle of accuracy is the firearm (including the sight(s)), the ammunition, and the shooter. Which brand of rifle has the best accuracy potential that is truely out of the box is a moot point. Sniper rifles and benchrest rifles are not "out of the box". Once a trigger is adjusted or the bedding tinkered with the rifle is no longer "out of the box". When using a hunting firearm that is accurate enough to do the job at hand it's up to the hunter to make it happen.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #55 on:** December 25, 2011, 02:30:54 AM »

delete