Author Topic: firelapping .44 mag carbine  (Read 1460 times)

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Offline coyotejoe

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firelapping .44 mag carbine
« on: February 05, 2012, 09:08:41 AM »
I recently acquired a Rossi '92 in .44 mag. The bore is quite rough with reamer marks full length and accuracy is poor. I've slugged the bore with a .433" roundball and it comes in at .429", but that is only at the breech. After starting the ball at the muzzle it slips down pretty easily to about the rear sight, then becomes tight and continues to be progressively tighter until it pops out at the breech. I've tried firelapping it with soft lead 210 grain wadcutter bullets which mike .431", loaded over 3.0 grains of Bullseye, using Wheeler compound. I first tried two dozen with 220 grit, after which I could detect no difference at all. I then tried another two dozen with 320 grit. Maybe, perhaps, the bore looked a little bit smoother but still no difference in the tightness at the breech end. I ran out of the 220 grit, having used it on several guns over the years. Should I just keep trying with the 320 or am I overlooking something.
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline coyotejoe

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Re: firelapping .44 mag carbine
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2012, 11:27:20 AM »
Well to answer my own question, I tried another 25 rounds with the 320 grit and concluded this foolishness is a waste of time and ammo. So I dug through my old junk and found my lapping rod I once used on a couple of muzzleloaders. I cast a 2" long lead slug at the muzzle, impregnated it with the same Wheeler 320 grit and with the rifle clamped in a vise I set to work hand lapping it. It took about an hour and a half from starting to search for my stuff to washing my hands at the finish. I'll never waste another minute or bullet on "firelapping". When you count up the actual time expended, casting bullets, rolling on the compound, priming cases, dropping powder, seating bullets then several trip to the range there is no doubt that hand lapping the old fashioned way is quicker, cheaper and produces better results.
 My bore now slugs at .430" groove diameter and is uniform from end to end.
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline Veral

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Re: firelapping .44 mag carbine
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2012, 04:17:51 PM »
  There is an ancient axiom which says,  If the shoe fits, wear it.

  Your post appears to pretty well slam my firelapping method, which you did not try.  What you did was take advise from other ignorant people and proceed in their ignorance.  That guarantees poor results.  In other words I'm not letting anyone put such a shoe on me or my firelapping method.  Furthermore, I think it would be good for anyone questioning whether to firelap to first read your results of not doing it right.  With that I'll try to explain what I believe was your problem, and my explaination is with many thousands of customer reports  behind me,  None of them bad.  Though many have had what I believe was your problem and I warn very carefully about it in my extensive instructions.

  I believe your lack of results were due to very good fortune for you, in that you were getting leading which stopped the abrasive action necessary to slick up the barrel.  If you had not been getting leading you postiviely would have been crying about ruining the barrel, as the 220 grit would have removed about 3 inches of the rifling origin, or throat.

  Let me strongly recommend that anyone interested in firelapping purchase the stuff from LBT.  I developed the process and have what works without fail.  There have been many  would be 'wise men' who make recommendations of various slugging and lapping methods, who actually don't have a good base of proven results to substantiate what they are saying.  My costs are very low per gun, so going with anything else will almost certainly cost you more than simply getting the proper compound and instructions.  Understand that I don't sell firelapping kits to make money but do it at a price that just covers expenses with a bit extra to compensate for hours of phone time to anyone who runs into snags.   My whole reason for selling lap kits and teaching the world how to do it right is so that optimum cast bullet performance is possible.  Without perfect bores perfect performance cannot be obtained.  Firelapping  with my method and material, and slugging with my push through slugs are the only way I know of which will improve any barrel, even rough pitted ones, and make them shoot respectably, while also improving premium custom gun barrels, ALWAYS!

  About optimum bore configuration.  Your hand lapping CANNOT produce it.  For best performance with both cast and jacketed, the  needs to be slightly tapered, small at the muzzle,  and free of jerkyness as felt by an LBT push through slug.  It doesn't have to be free of all tooling marks, but only smoothed enough so the bullet slides with perfectly smooth and consistent force.  Secondly, and most important for cast is that the throat, into the rifling lands needs to be smoothed so that the rifling land origins are rounded and tapered a little.  This does wonders in controling the stripping of rifling engagement on the bullet, and also dramatically improves hydrolic lubrication pressure during the critical takeoff of the bullet.

  Round balls, and for goodness sake fishing sinkers which cost 2 or 3 times what my pushthrough slugs do, will not give you a feel or accurate measurement of a rifled bore..  This in part because they have to be driven or tapped through the barrel and with every tap they swell to the barrels size at that position.  LBT push through slugs take one bump to get started and are then pushed through with moderate to light hand pressure giving a very precise feel of what a bullet feels.  When a bore is lapped perfectly they take the light bump to get started then give a consistent smooth resistence full length of the bore right up till they fall out of the muzzle.  There is NO OTHER method  for a layman, or professional barrel maker to measure with equal precision.

  About hand lapping.   It is impossible to hand lap to a barrel with the perfect configuration obtained by fire lapping.  Handlapping ALWAYS leaves both ends of the barrel a bit unfinished, with the most crucial end being the throat, in most cases.  Also, there are very few people capable of doing it right, this speaking of mechanical skills, but also physical strength.  Doing it right will raise a good sweat on a strong mans brow, and leave him with sore muscles, if extensive lapping is needed.    Firelapping can be done, with perfect precision by anone capable of handloading  ammo and firing the gun.
Veral Smith

Offline coyotejoe

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Re: firelapping .44 mag carbine
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2012, 04:18:45 AM »
Actually, NO! There was no leading of the bore either before nor after lapping, though the bore was quite rough it never did lead at all. After firing 25 cast bullets I would get at most a few, and I do mean "few" tiny flakes of lead on the first cleaning patch. And isn't it odd that makers of high dollar custom barrels do hand lap them while they do not recommend fire lapping. When I lap a barrel I cast the slug at least two inches long so that it has a bearing surface like a wood plane to guide it smoothly. The slug is cast at the muzzle which is first heated to obtain a good cast just as a bullet mold must be heated before it will cast a full bullet without wrinkles and voids. That heat expands the bore so that when again cooled the slug will be a tight fit to the bore. That process does produce a bore tighter at the muzzle since the slug is removed only occasionally to re-coat with compound. The slug was pushed all the way to the breech face so that the bore was lapped fully to the chamber throat but not enlarging the chamber throat as firelapping must do. By hand lapping one can work the slug repeatedly through and tight spots to even out the bore just as a wood plane is used to take down any high spots. Firelapping cannot do that.
You certainly do like to blow your own horn and you may fool some but I've been there and done that.
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline Veral

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Re: firelapping .44 mag carbine
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2012, 08:34:52 PM »
  I guess my horn blowing hurt your ears a bit, which was not intended.  My concern was and is only that very few people of the thousands I've done business with are willing or capable of handlapping with optimum results, and I don't want any of them discouraged with what I offer or to be convinced that fire lapping is inferior, when it is superior.    Keep in mind that the premium barrel makers who hand lap do it with the blank, which will be shortened at both ends.  Also, those whom I have known are very crude about it, using grit which is too coarse for general use on finished barrels of production  guns.  One barrel maker who lapped his barrels only lapped the reamed blanks a half dozen strokes or so, then cut the rifling.  That much minimized jacket fouling on the lands and helped accuracy a little.  I have no idea how many other lap only the reamed hole.
 
  With all that aside, I am also 71 years old with my full life being a precision machinest, predision machine rebuilder and metal working machine designer and builder.  I think maybe everyone who reaches that age, and especially those who are so hard headed that they intend to work till they drop, and never retire, are hard headed about what they have proven to work.  As I said earlier, a major part of my hard headedness comes from tutoring thousands of customers in fire lapping, with no bad results yet.  I won't rock that boat nor let it be rocked if I can help it!

  Thank you very much for giving details of how you did it, and that would be great if the barrel isn't too bad to begin with, but the lap will loosen quite dramatically when a bore is severely choked as it is in most revolvers, which happen to be the most lapped guns for my customers,   Hand lapping a revolver would require makeing several laps to complete the job, as a worn lap will not contact the bottom of the grooves and put the required finish for optimum cast performance.

  You are happy with what you have and can do. By all means stick with it.    But my customers will remain happiest with fire lapping, and I doubt that 1% of them could ever be convinced to hand lap.
Veral Smith

Offline bagdadjoe

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Re: firelapping .44 mag carbine
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2012, 02:55:18 PM »
hmmm, worked good on the 7 guns I tried it on. Seems like you tried to re-invent the wheel and then got irked when the stuff you substituted and the method you substituted didn't work. Can't make lemonade with limes.  I can think of one reason "high dollar" makers advertise "hand lapping"...so they can justify all them high dollars. ;)   
 
I'm wondering how many barrels you've handlapped and how you worked out your method?  I've never heard of using the barrel itself as a casting vessel. Not sure I'd want to heat one up on one end to that temperature and risk warping it.
"By all means, make friends with the dog...but do not set aside the stick".

Offline Veral

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Re: firelapping .44 mag carbine
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2012, 07:24:01 PM »
  I never kept count of how many barrels I've hand lapped but plenty enough to know how to do it and know the shortcomings.
  You say you never heard of casting in the barrel. -- If you don't cast the lap skag in the barrel of interest there is do way to make it reach out into the grooves with precision.  It must be cast in the barrel to do it right as possible, then tightened by bumping whenever it loosens.  It is bull work for a strong man if it's done right, and then it is impossible to get the barrel straight all the way to the muzzle or breech, depending on which end one is lapping from.  I will only do it on muzzle loaders because I don't know any way to fire lap them, or I might someday do it on a barrel that has been welded and shrunk severely, just to get the big hump out, but then I would finish by fire lapping to get the unbeatable tapered or choke bore.
Veral Smith

Offline bagdadjoe

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Re: firelapping .44 mag carbine
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2012, 10:44:45 AM »
Well, there's my lesson for today!  I think I'll just stay with the firelapping..seems like a lot less trouble...being lazy like I am.
"By all means, make friends with the dog...but do not set aside the stick".