Re: Winemaking and Toxins

[blind ear]

Cornbelt,
 
 how did the wine that you threw out taste? Could it be boiled down and concentrated and added back to the finished wine to adjust flavor?
 
I made crabapple wine and the stuff was painfull to drink,(dang near killed my stomach) my only effort ever.  Time to try again. ear

[bilmac]

Ear,   I made just juice from a couple different crabapple trees in my yard, one was nice and sweet . The other was very tart, but I could drink it if I diluted it with water and added a bunch of sugar. But it did to me what you describe, gave me one of the worst cases of heartburn I can remember, even when the juice was diluted.

Do you suppose that the apples from that tree have too much tannic acid? Funny thing is others have drank it and said they never had a reaction. Maybe they were just being nice.

[blind ear]

Ear,   I made just juice from a couple different crabapple trees in my yard, one was nice and sweet . The other was very tart, but I could drink it if I diluted it with water and added a bunch of sugar. But it did to me what you describe, gave me one of the worst cases of heartburn I can remember, even when the juice was diluted.

Do you suppose that the apples from that tree have too much tannic acid? Funny thing is others have drank it and said they never had a reaction. Maybe they were just being nice.

Hurt me bad enough that I was laying in the floor sweating. I suspected the tannic acid but saw no need to check into it further. When I try again it won't be crabapple. I have had other homemade wines do me similar but not as bad. Could have been too much residual sugar. ear

[jvs]

Crabapple Toxicity :
 
 Toxins

•    The crabapple tree's seeds, leaves and stems contain cyanogenic glycosides. Chewing and ingesting them causes cyanide to be released. Cyanide can cause cell death very quickly.

Toxicity Level

•    Crabapple seeds are rated as a Class 1 toxin. Class 1 is major toxicity, meaning they may cause serious illness or death if ingested.

Size

•    Toxicity level depends on amount ingested and size of the animal. A few bites eaten by a small dog can be fatal, whereas a large breed dog would not show any symptoms even though it isn't healthy to eat any of it.

Symptoms

•    Symptoms of cyanogenic glycoside poisoning include vomiting, diarrhea, congestion, slowed heart-rate, seizures and death. Although more common in livestock that consume large amounts, dogs who eat crabapples can get sick or die.

[blind ear]

Geeeeezzzz, I'm glad that I am still here. ear

[blind ear]

jvs, is that what they call laetril (or something like that) in peach and apricot seed? ear

[Cornbelt]

 Ear,
       The elderberry wine didn't need any concentrating. I'm surprised it didn't kill off everything in the septic system. Not that I haven't had worse, but only when I made it myself. Worse was crabapple wine. Couldn't drink the cider and after a year sitting in the icebox, it turned to wine. And I thought the cider was bad. Even that made a nephew throw up. It was really a Hawthorne, or Red Haw. The yellow crabs we've got now are good enough to eat, but I haven't made any wine from them.
 
  I've heard that apple seeds will pass right on through a person's system if not chewed, without releasing toxin. Wonder if the fermentation does something to the seed coat?

[blind ear]

cornbelt, sounds real familiar. ear

[jvs]

Alot of the Elderberry plant is also toxic.  If I remember correctly, the only part of the elderbery plant that is safe is the pulp of the berry.  The seeds have toxins.  I always 'juice' elderberrys first for my wine.
 
 
I think it would be safe to assume that the seed or pit of any fruit or berry may be unhealthy until you research it.   Of course we know that blackberry, blueberry and raspberry seeds are basically harmless, but a little time looking things up may prevent a unwanted mistake from happening.  Exercise due care when you choose your ingredients.

[jvs]

jvs, is that what they call laetril (or something like that) in peach and apricot seed? ear

Ear,
 
I dont know what compound they found in those pits, but I do remember hearing many many moons ago that medical science was going to look into a chemical compound in a Apricot pit as a possible cancer cure.  I dont think it ever worked out as a cure, but they looked into it.  So there would be some unhealty parts in a Apricot pit.  I would guess that Arsenic and Cyanide have a tendency to hide in fruit pits, although I have no proof of that.
 
I also wanted to bring up Sassafras trees...
 
I dont exactly know if sassafras can be used in winemaking, but I remember reading that all of the parts of a sassafras tree can be deadly, including the leaves.  Seems to contain some cancer causing compounds.
 
I was surprised to read that since every time I went walking in the woods somewhere and came across a sassafras tree, I chewed on some leaves.   I always looked forward to it.  Sassafras trees are not uncommon here in Pennsylvania.  I even know a guy, that when he smokes meat, he only uses Sassafras.  It comes out great.
 
But now I have to second guess using it in anything.

[blind ear]

I think the peach seed stuff is what I was talking about.
 
Sassafrass leaves are what file' for file' gumbeaux are made form. I guess a heap of cajuns are narrowly escapeing death. such is the plight of us lowley humans. ear

[charles p]

When I was a kid I ate a few crabapples.  Having read your experiences, I don't think I will eat or drink anything else made from them.
Do birds and animals eat the crabapples?
I have a female cedar three than produces a ton of blue grey berries.  Nothing eats them for six months, then one day all sorts of birds and gulls assault the tree and eat the berries.  Same goes for a piracantha (sp) bush with thorns and red berries.  Before they fall off about April, birds will gorge on them, but never in December - February while they are pretty.

[bilmac]

Juniper berries are used to flavor gin. I believe that the Indians used to eat them, but I don't know how they got around the flavor. I suppose if you are really really hungery, and juniper berries are the only thing sticking out of the snow, you don't worry about flavor so much.

[jedman]

I make sassafrass wine,  I collect roots in the late fall and cut them up and boil them.
There is a winery here in OH that makes sassafrass wine from the leaves its called Rainbow Springs Winery.
  I have made many wines with crabapples and never had any bad effect from them and we run the whole apples thru a meat grinder seeds and all ?
                                      Jedman

[bilmac]

We have two crabapple trees One has very small fruit between boulder marble and golf ball in size. The other makes fruit almost as big as small apples, but the seeds are a pretty shade of pink and some of the flesh is pink too. The small fruit made juice that was nice and sweet an maybe even better than apple juice. It never gives me any problems. The juice from the large fruit is what works me over. It is really sour, to make it palitable I pretty much treated it like lemon juice, added lots of sugar and water.

My grinder is a factory job specifically made for apples. It has a wide gap and is made to just mince them up for pressing. It would only rarely break open a seed.

 There are several possible problems that I can think of. Maybe I am just sensitive. Others who have sampled the juice even at full strength don't complain. Maybe it is just this variety of tree that a problem. Maybe I picked the apples too green. They were sour when we picked them but I was doing the other tree and I didn't want to clean up twice. I put the juice in beer bottles so had small individual servings. Maybe a seed got into one of the bottles and had time to defuse poisen.

Could anyone make a guess as to what varieties of trees I have? I bought the place they are on receintly so have no idea.

[jvs]

bilmac,
 
I did a Google search of carbapple varieties and came up with a list of articles.  This is only one of them:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malus
 
I hope it helps.

[wyb]

I believe that the primary acid in apples is malic acid. Named after the apple genus.  I don't know how complicated you want to make your fermentation process, but you could try a malo-lactic fermentation.  Buy a bacteria culture that converts malic acid to milder lactic acid.  I haven't tried it myself, so can't really give any more advice than that.
 
Matt