Author Topic: Green Energy just isn't Ready  (Read 519 times)

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Offline Sourdough

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Green Energy just isn't Ready
« on: January 29, 2012, 11:19:15 AM »
I keep telling those greenies that the time just is not here yet.  They won't listen, but here is some more evidence I'm right.  Got this from News Max
 
3. Support for Renewable Energy Yields ‘Poor’ Results
 
Renewable electric energy from nonhydroelectric sources — chiefly wind and solar — contributed only 3.6 percent of total U.S. generation in 2010 — yet received 53.5 percent of all federal financial support for electric power.
 
And wind power alone, which provides 2.3 percent of generation, received 42 percent of all support.
 
Wind and solar renewable energy have failed to thrive despite government support because they face substantial “market impediments,” according to Benjamin Zycher, a visiting scholar at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI).
 
“Energy policies in the United States for decades have pursued energy sources defined in various ways as alternative, unconventional, independent, renewable, and clean in an effort to replace such conventional fuels as oil, coal, and natural gas,” Zycher states on the AEI website, and “renewable electricity receives very large direct and indirect subsidies from the federal and state governments.
 
“These long-standing efforts have, without exception, yielded poor outcomes.”
 
Among the “market impediments” to large-scale development of renewable energy resources is the amount of land required for wind farms and solar facilities.
 
A wind farm would require 500 windmills, each producing 2 megawatts (MW) of energy, to generate 1,000 MW — assuming the farm operates at full capacity, which would be virtually impossible. Since wind turbines must be spaced apart to maximize production, a 1,000 MW farm needs from 48,000 to 64,000 acres of land — from 75 to 100 square miles.
 
In contrast, a 1,000 MW gas-fired plant needs about 10 to 15 acres.
 
As for solar facilities, it takes a square meter of solar energy-receiving capacity to produce, at best, enough power for a single 100-watt light bulb, according to Zycher.
 
Renewable energy also presents transmission problems. Wind farms are best suited for the Midwest and solar facilities for the Southwest, far from the coasts where most electricity is consumed, and this creates significant transmission costs.
 
One survey found that wind projects would have a median transmission cost of $15 per megawatt hour, compared to $3.60 in transmission costs for coal and natural gas.
 
Looking ahead to 2016, “the projected cost of renewable power is at least five times higher than that for conventional electricity,” says Zycher, author of the new book “Renewable Electricity Generation: Economic Analysis and Outlook.”
 
He concludes: “Despite these excess costs, political support for wind and solar power remains strong. No state has formally abandoned or weakened its renewable electricity requirements, and federal policies to promote renewable technology in electricity production remain in place.”
 
 
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Offline streak

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Re: Green Energy just isn't Ready
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2012, 05:18:28 PM »
Sourdough,
you mentioned the transmission cost for electricty created by wind farms!
Just think about how much electrical energy is lost due to the great distance that some of this electricity has to be transmitted.
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Offline Shu

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Re: Green Energy just isn't Ready
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2012, 02:20:53 AM »
Up the road 50 miles from the house is a geothermal plant on government land. The Navy base is utilizing solar power by putting panels on carports and is building a large solar plant with Sunpower as a partner. Government owned land contractor owned/ran panels. The math says a 13 million dollar savings over the next 20 years from the solar plant.  Not alot for 20 years but it is better than a sharp stick in the eye.
I have to agree green energy is not really here yet but it is closer. The solar plant and geothermal plant are built in the dessert. There is no land being taken up that is beneficial to anyone. The Navy is at least trying to push the technology along. It is not perfect but it is a good start. There is alot of dessert lands that have no function other than being hot and having the sun shine on it 360 days a year. Plenty of land for off roaders, shooters and hiking.
Energy loss from AC lines is really not much at all.
The big bonus in my opinion is every killawatt produced by non petroleum means, is a killawatt that isn't paid to a nation that hates us.

Offline magooch

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Re: Green Energy just isn't Ready
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2012, 03:45:32 AM »
Our Public Utility (electric power) was mandated to invest in renewable power (wind turbines) and the consequence is that our power rates have been raised by over 25 percent in the past year.  We used to have about the cheapest power in the country, but this insane push for "green power" is changing that.  By the way, until the recent investment in wind power, all of our power was hydro.  Apparently that isn't "green" enough.  Hydro isn't even allowed to be considered renewable.
 
What most people do not understand is that solar and wind power must be backed by a conventional power generating facility and it has to be idling and ready to throttle up at all times--unless you are fond of brown-outs, or blackouts.
 
Our PUD also went from being in the black financially, to $300 million in debt.  The citizens of the district are about to fire, or lynch the PUD commissioners and manager, but they only have themselves to blame, because the voters were the ones who demanded through a local initiative that the PUD invest in green power.  This is what they (we) get for going along with the liberal line of thinking.  Liberalism is always pie in the sky and will always fail.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Green Energy just isn't Ready
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2012, 03:55:26 AM »
People just want to feel warm and fuzzy about power gen ! Same with trash it cost more than its worth to seperate it . I say when we run out of carbon fuels then it will be cost effective to do other things and also put waste in dumps and when cost effective future generations will mine those dunps .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline no guns here

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Re: Green Energy just isn't Ready
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2012, 04:13:09 AM »
they all have their benefits and drawbacks.  None of it is a 100% replacement for what we have now BUT they can all be used in some places and in certain situations.  Just because something isn't a 100% replacement doesn't mean that it should be dismissed or ignored.
 
 
NGH
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Green Energy just isn't Ready
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2012, 04:25:48 AM »
My point is the Govt should stay out of it ( take our tax dollars and use for things we don't wish to invest in) and let free trade work.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline bilmac

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Re: Green Energy just isn't Ready
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2012, 04:36:13 AM »
I think that the future is for these sources, especially wind, to be small scale local projects. We are starting to see small wind farms spring up all over the windy plains where I live.  Towns in the 20,000 to 100,000 size all seem to be getting their own wind farms in fairly close proximity.

 Makes a lot more sense than the big mega farms I see in other parts of the country because they will save in transmission line costs. The prices of aluminum and copper are getting way up there.   

The windmills are not the horrible neighbors the naysayers make them out to be. They are supposed to be noisey , but I stood very near one when it was clipping right along, and it just made a mild swishing noise.  I suspect the bird strikes they are supposed to cause are greatly over played too. Getting to be you can't trust "scientific" evidence any more, everybody has an agenda.

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: Green Energy just isn't Ready
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2012, 04:55:38 AM »
there should be some kind of paint job that would lessen bird strikes.
I've seen spinnning airplane propellors that were easily spotted.
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Offline no guns here

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Re: Green Energy just isn't Ready
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2012, 05:06:47 AM »
Actual footprint of wind turbines...
 
http://www.nrel.gov/analysis/power_databook/calc_wind.php
 
Important note is that the land around and between all the wind turbines is still useable for it's original use of farming or ranching.  Ranchers make money leasing this land to the power companies.
 
Older link showing commercial wind farms in Oklahoma http://www.bartbinning.com/comdev/wind-farms-oklahoma.htm.  This shows something like 700MW in production as of 2008.  That's 700MW not being produced by nuclear energy or by huge smokestacks of coal or gas (although these are cleaner now than they used to be).
 
NGH
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Offline guzzijohn

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Re: Green Energy just isn't Ready
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2012, 05:07:12 AM »
Bird deaths with modern wind farms appears to be minimal. The below is even from treehugger.com site:


In the United States, cars and trucks wipe out millions of birds each year, while 100 million to 1 billion birds collide with windows. According to the 2001 National Wind Coordinating Committee study, “Avian Collisions with Wind Turbines: A Summary of Existing Studies and Comparisons to Other Sources of Avian Collision Mortality in the United States," these non-wind mortalities compare with 2.19 bird deaths per turbine per year. That's a long way from the sum mortality caused by the other sources.


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Offline BUGEYE

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Re: Green Energy just isn't Ready
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2012, 05:13:34 AM »
Bird deaths with modern wind farms appears to be minimal. The below is even from treehugger.com site:


In the United States, cars and trucks wipe out millions of birds each year, while 100 million to 1 billion birds collide with windows. According to the 2001 National Wind Coordinating Committee study, “Avian Collisions with Wind Turbines: A Summary of Existing Studies and Comparisons to Other Sources of Avian Collision Mortality in the United States," these non-wind mortalities compare with 2.19 bird deaths per turbine per year. That's a long way from the sum mortality caused by the other sources.


GuzziJohn
I guess it's like the naysayers about the Alaska pipe line disrupting wildlife, but I saw a picture of a caribou laying under the pipe chewing his cud.
wildlife is adaptable.
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Offline Val

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Re: Green Energy just isn't Ready
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2012, 05:42:05 AM »
There is a rare earth that is crucial to the manufacture of solar panels. There is also a rare earth necesary to manufacture the high power magnets in wind turbines. China has a worls virtual monopoly on these rare earth elements. The Chinese would love us going completely green, it would be a huge lift to Chinese industry. Spain was cited by Obummer as the going green program that we should model our program on. Spain recently gave up because they could not afford the huge Tax subsidies. For every green job created in Spain, 2.2 nongreen jobs were lost.
Come on liberals, take your heads out of the place where the sun don't shine. Going green at this time is stupid. We must develop our own energy resources and continue research on green technology until we find a truly cost effective approach. We also need to find a way to burn coal cleanly.
Hunting and fishing are not matters of life or death. They are much more important than that.

Offline Sourdough

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Re: Green Energy just isn't Ready
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2012, 09:24:57 AM »
It's been reported that Alaska has those rare earth minerals.  Unfortunately the Federal Government has them locked up and won't let us mine them.  Just like the oil wells already drilled just needing to be hooked to the grid for the pipeline.  These wells are on Federal Lands and the Feds refuse to let us hook them up.
Where is old Joe when we really need him?  Alaska Independence    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"
What Is A Veteran?
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Offline oldandslow

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Re: Green Energy just isn't Ready
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2012, 05:05:04 AM »
I look at solar and wind technology today as being like the Model T Ford car. The car was more expensive than a horse then like green energy is more expensive than natural gas and coal generated electricty is today. The knowledge gained by building and operating these systems now will result in improvements that in time should greatly improve the cost per kilowatt that they produce just like time and experience have improved the Model T into today's automobile.
 
Although neither system will provide all our power needs they will become more efficient. Would you rather we quit using these systems until we run out of fuel to generate electricity and start from scratch then or work on them now and have more efficient systems when it really becomes critical because of fuel shortages. Even now they are producing power to extend the time before we run out of fossil fuel.
 
Nuclear power has to be included also but it faces huge public opposition. Perhaps that will lessen when people are sitting around it the dark with no TV, computers, games, heat, cooling, etc.
 
Alternating current has very little voltage drop over long distances. Without it we wouldn't have a viable electical grid and our wonderful way of life that depends so heavily on electricity. I hear very little to nothing about energy conservation except about light bulbs. It seems like everyone that lives out of town in my part of this world has to have a security light. Industrial applications have the area lit up like mid-day even though no one is there for 16 hours a day. If I want to see the milky way or play with my telescope I have to drive over thirty miles. Do we really need all this light at night?
 
Being truthful I have to admit to having a secutity light even though all my neighbors have one and some of them have two and I could see just fine at night before we got it. I didn't want it then and I had a short discussion with the wife just a couple of days ago about turning it off since the cost has risen about 40% in the ten years we have had it.  Looks like it is going to stay. Shows who is boss around here. I tell her it will just help the thieves see what to carry off but that hasn't worked either.
 
I'm done with my rant. I feel better now. I think I will go have another cup of coffee brewed with my electric coffee maker.  ;D

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Green Energy just isn't Ready
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2012, 07:07:20 AM »
I look at solar and wind technology today as being like the Model T Ford car. The car was more expensive than a horse then like green energy is more expensive than natural gas and coal generated electricty is today. The knowledge gained by building and operating these systems now will result in improvements that in time should greatly improve the cost per kilowatt that they produce just like time and experience have improved the Model T into today's automobile.
Did the govt. pay for the model "T" to be developed ? If anything they made the cost higher with restrictions. So in effect the drivers / car buyers paid for development of the model "T". So let the consumer that wants the tech pay for it and those who don't not be forced to. You must reconize that most did not drive when the "T" came out and many still do not drive.
 
Although neither system will provide all our power needs they will become more efficient. Would you rather we quit using these systems until we run out of fuel to generate electricity and start from scratch then or work on them now and have more efficient systems when it really becomes critical because of fuel shortages. Even now they are producing power to extend the time before we run out of fossil fuel.
At a higher rate , when many years of dino oil is still aval. Let the generation that has to use it pay for it !
Nuclear power has to be included also but it faces huge public opposition. Perhaps that will lessen when people are sitting around it the dark with no TV, computers, games, heat, cooling, etc.
one can only hope they wake up
 
Alternating current has very little voltage drop over long distances. Without it we wouldn't have a viable electical grid and our wonderful way of life that depends so heavily on electricity. I hear very little to nothing about energy conservation except about light bulbs. It seems like everyone that lives out of town in my part of this world has to have a security light. Industrial applications have the area lit up like mid-day even though no one is there for 16 hours a day. If I want to see the milky way or play with my telescope I have to drive over thirty miles. Do we really need all this light at night?
Good point the marketing dept at the power co's have done a bang up job.
 
Being truthful I have to admit to having a secutity light even though all my neighbors have one and some of them have two and I could see just fine at night before we got it. I didn't want it then and I had a short discussion with the wife just a couple of days ago about turning it off since the cost has risen about 40% in the ten years we have had it.  Looks like it is going to stay. Shows who is boss around here. I tell her it will just help the thieves see what to carry off but that hasn't worked either.
I have a light I can turn on if needed but it stays off most of the time unless we are out and need it to skin deer or such.
I'm done with my rant. I feel better now. I think I will go have another cup of coffee brewed with my electric coffee maker.  ;D
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline magooch

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Re: Green Energy just isn't Ready
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2012, 09:12:03 AM »
Hydro power rules and always will and just like I predicted, the wind generator folks have pressured government to make hydo power pay them when there is no need for the wind power.  Last year and probably this year also, there was a surplus of water in our rivers and thus plenty of hydro power.  There was no need for the more expensive wind power, so the windmills sat idle.  No return on these overpriced Chinese whirlygigs, so they want hydro to subsidize them, so they can make their payments.
 
Wind and solar power will never be anything but a pimple on the butt of real reliable power generation.  We'd better get busy building more dams to power up them "green" Chevy Volts, or they'll be just another testament to an idea that got ahead of itself.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Green Energy just isn't Ready
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2012, 09:20:55 AM »
Back in 2001 I went to Canada to hunt , one of the most amazing sights was a wind mill farm in IL. or ID. I think it was . They were as far as one could see. Went back a few years later they were tearing them down. When I got gas I ask the guy at the station what was going on , he said when installed they were erected a few degrees off and they didn't work correctly. These things went on for miles. If those guys were so smart why didn't they have adjustment ? Its that way with all the green stuff , get it in before people realize they are getting s----ed and cut the funds.
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Offline Shu

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Re: Green Energy just isn't Ready
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2012, 03:03:19 PM »
I have to agree green energy isn't ready yet. It is still being developed. It takes time. You know if man were ment to fly he'd have wings.
The base I work on generates about 300 mega watts, geothermal and solar combined.
The latest effort is a 118 acre 13.78 megawatt solar farm. In conjuction with Sunpower, the Navy is providing the dessert land and Sunpower is supplying everything else. No out of pocket monies from the tax payer. Google Navy Solar power for more details.
The dessert land is basically useless so why not build a solar farm.
 
I think about my hunting/fishing cabin. No power lines and just a few solar cells to charge the batteries. In the evening it sure is peaceful to watch the sun set with a nice cup of coffee and just listen to the silence. 

Offline bilmac

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Re: Green Energy just isn't Ready
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2012, 05:38:26 PM »
That is what the future of solar power will be. It already costs a fortune to run a power line to remote places and as copper and aluminum goes up it will get worse. I have 110 watts worth of solar panels at my cabin in the country. Momma wants to get hooked up to the grid, but I don't need to be paying the minimum charge month after month.

Offline P.A. Myers

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Re: Green Energy just isn't Ready
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2012, 02:10:01 AM »
When the cost of any energy source becomes low enough it will find a market.  Socialist attempts to force the market only result in more theft of public funds.  The reward for developing a cheaper  power source is that it will make you fabulously wealthy.

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never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense”
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Offline Tommyt

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Re: Green Energy just isn't Ready
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2012, 02:48:56 AM »
We have all the Box's of chocolate we need
you keep yours will send ours to St Pete  :)
Used to be a few Judges that would give bus tickets
Unfortunately they got caught
 
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