Crimping or not with no cannelure

[tacotime]

I have read many various opinions about crimping rifle rounds.
 
Recently discovered that Speer's FAQ section says that if a cartridge OAL spec leaves the cannelure covered by the case neck mouth or completely outside it, that no crimp is needed for that round. 
 
However, I find it surprising that neither the .358 Win. 220gr. nor the .375 H&H 235gr., (the first with a cannelure too far forward to use in the .358 and the second without a cannelure altogether), are considered to not require crimping.  So apparently the recoil level would need to be above these calibers to call for a crimp for recoil bullet holding purposes only. 
 
And, that bullets without a cannelure should not be crimped due to jacket damage.
 
Meanwhile Lee recommends crimping all critical and hunting rounds, whether or not there is a cannelure.
 
Do any of you crimp bullets that do not have a cannelure?

[huntswithdogs]

The only bullets I crimped have been fired in Leverguns or handguns. All of the rifle rounds fired through boltguns have used neck tension only.

HWD

[bilmac]

Same as the dogman. I think crimping can only degrade the ultra accuracy you look for in a bolt gun. Things have to be perfect or you are just adding another variable to the equation. Plus crimping is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist , not for me any way. Never had a bullet move under recoil to my knowledge.

I just did some testing of a 223 black rifle. These are always SUPPOSED to have crimped bullets. For a collection of reasons, I didn't have a lot of different crimped bullets to test and didn't want to make any either, so I tested several un-crimped loads I had for my bolt gun. The loads all had lightly compressed charges of W748 or BLC-2 powder and I didn't think I would have any problems. But as a check as I fired I extracted rounds that had been chambered in the normal cycling action of the gun. I looked them over carefully and never found one where the bullet had moved.

The test included Factory ammo with crimped bullets, military ball ammo, and some crimped handloads. The smallest group of the test was shot with un-crimped bullets made for the bolt gun.

[cwlongshot]

I think for this conversation we need to omit military rounds from the equation. Suffice it to say that all military ammo is crimped. It for different reasons. Accuracy or lack there of is not in that equation.

For what I load, I do see a need to crimp most rounds. When I do crimp, my reasons are powder requirements, severe duty and magazines/feeding.

1) Powder requirements: Magnum pistol powders respond very well to good firm crimps. It produces smaller discrepancies in velocity and allows for better more complete powder burn.

2) Severe duty:  Dangerous game, I climate or unknown climactic conditions. (Military applications) crimping along with sealing the primers and bullets to stop moisture.

3) Magazines: Mostly tubular. Under recoil with a full or nearly full tube there is a great deal of force placed on the next round going in the chamber. These forces can and will move a bullet. Should that bullet be loaded to max and have its capacity refused even a small percentage it could be bad. Feeding, some actions are not easy on bullets using the shape or profile of the bullet to aide in feeding. These many times can be be aided by crimping.

People will look for the easiest fix or lean to the biggest voice or go with the majority. It's human nature. This is where the Lee "Factory Crimp Die" came to be. As Bill mentioned and I have referred to it as a "solution to a non exist ant problem".  There is more to a bullets application than simple a cannelure. Generally speaking can alluded bullets are made for calibers that need crimping. Also generally speaking these are for firearms with tubular magazines.

Every time I have had bullets move in box magazines or my extreme spreads have fluctuated I have found my expander balls to me over or miss sized. Once this was corrected no more problems occurred. I load for some 30 odd calibers over 30+ years. From 17 Rem to 416 Rem and 375 H&H magnums, my bullets have not move in my box magazines.

When I needed to crimp, the crimping afforded by the seating die (That comes in the die set) has never let me down of left me wanting more.
 
CW

[Lloyd Smale]

same here. Ive never seen it help accuracy and i have seen it hurt accuracy.

The only bullets I crimped have been fired in Leverguns or handguns. All of the rifle rounds fired through boltguns have used neck tension only.

HWD

[Larry L]

This is a lot simpler than it looks tacotime. All ya have to do is buy a cannelure tool from CH or they are usually on Ebay for about half what CH sells them for. If you ever intend to shoot something like a 38-40, yer gonna need one. I take 180gr 10mm bullets and put a cannelure on them for my 38-40, for an example. The Lee FCD is a dandy but you can put a waist on a bullet and that will screw up accuracy. The cannelure tool is the only way to go. You can also put a cannelure on bullets that already have one but in the wrong location for your needs.



All steel construction and I doubt you'd live long enough to wear one out. The Ebay auctions usually go for about 35-40 bucks, CH gets 68. It's fully adjustable and even a caveman can use it.

[shot1]

I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die on lots of calibers with bullets WITHOUT cannelures. I have never seen it degrade accuracy only increase it. I sat laughing to myself as I would hear guys at the military rifle shooting matches we dreamed up at my range talking about how using the then new Lee Factory Crimp Die would destroy a match bullets accuracy. We shot off a bench for score at 100 yards rifle and 50 yards carbine. I was cleaning up in these matches and was using Nosler and Sierra match bullets and CRIMPING EVERYONE OF THEM WITH THE LEE DIE. I was shooting such tight groups that some of the people that were sore losers started having some of their friends watch me shoot and spotting my target with their scope to make sure that I was shooting 10 shots on each target and not just shooting a few shots in a tight group then shoot off the target someplace.

[tacotime]

Amazing the range of opinions!
 
Interesting info.  Thanks.
 
I think the decision point then will be if I can detect any bullet movement in the rounds in the magazine, then I'll either switch to another bullet, get the cannelure tool, or use the Lee FCD without a cannelure.   

[huntducks]

I have done it both ways, and I have a stack of Lee FC dies collecting dust the only one's I use are for a mag fed Semi Auto's.

[cwlongshot]

Amazing the range of opinions!
 
Interesting info.  Thanks.
 
I think the decision point then will be if I can detect any bullet movement in the rounds in the magazine, then I'll either switch to another bullet, get the cannelure tool, or use the Lee FCD without a cannelure.   

Easiest answer for you is try it as is... If it works your done. If not try something else....
 
CW

[tacklebury]

I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die on lots of calibers with bullets WITHOUT cannelures. I have never seen it degrade accuracy only increase it. I sat laughing to myself as I would hear guys at the military rifle shooting matches we dreamed up at my range talking about how using the then new Lee Factory Crimp Die would destroy a match bullets accuracy. We shot off a bench for score at 100 yards rifle and 50 yards carbine. I was cleaning up in these matches and was using Nosler and Sierra match bullets and CRIMPING EVERYONE OF THEM WITH THE LEE DIE. I was shooting such tight groups that some of the people that were sore losers started having some of their friends watch me shoot and spotting my target with their scope to make sure that I was shooting 10 shots on each target and not just shooting a few shots in a tight group then shoot off the target someplace.

+1  --  Especially with slower burning efficient powders.    My .223 without crimps and neck only tension groups about .75" with FCD crimp it's about .375".  Not saying all guns will perform the same, but I saw a difference in the same loads with and without using Reloader7 (fairly slow).  I also crimp all my .45-70 rounds using the FCD because I notice a lot of difference in accuracy when the bullet gets back very far from the rifling and the crimp keeps it better than neck tension, especially here when I go from freezing temps outside to warmer temps inside.  I've seen neck tensioned only bullets loosen up and drift.  I never shoot any pistol rounds in my revolver especially with out running through the Lee FCD.  I've had too many times when out at the range or hunting and a bullet doesn't want to drop into the chamber due to a miniscule bullet bulge you can barely see.  The FCD keeps this at bay and has produced the best results, especially on auto loads.  As I've stated previously I own one for every caliber they make one for.  Key to success is making sure you don't over CLAMP the bullet with too much pressure thereby modifying it's fit in the chamber.  I crimp just enough that the bullet cannot be rotated with gloved finger pressure.  Always crimp for any levergun if you are smart also.    But this is my experience only, so do as you like.    My bullets are crimped and will continue to be. 

[cjrjck]

If it has a cannelure or other groove I can use that will give me the OAL I need, I usually crimp. Otherwise I do not. Works best of course if the cases are trimmed to the same length to begin with.

[wncchester]

Bullet crimping is irrelivant for bolt guns, the magazine face stops bullets in the box from moving forward during firing.  Speer knows what they're talking about, if the bullet has a cannalure use it if you wish, otherwise forget it. 

[Catfish]

I only crimp ammo for gun with a heavy racoil that will move the bullets that are in the magizine. I pay no attention to the canatlure on a bullet and most of the bullets I shoot with cannalures have the bullets seated with the cannalure way above the end of the case.

[fastchicken]

I tested crimp vs no crimp on some 243 and 270 loads, on bullets both with a cannelure and without. Can't say I saw much difference for me so I only crimp my 30-30.
  As far as crimping a bullet without a cannelure, I know at least one factory load that does it [Win.Powermax Bonded] but most factory stuff is crimped. For those who say crimping without a cannelure distorts the jacket, well yes it does, but what is a cannelure? A neat little distortion of the jacket, how else does it get there?

Bullet crimping is irrelivant for bolt guns, the magazine face stops bullets in the box from moving forward during firing.  Speer knows what they're talking about, if the bullet has a cannalure use it if you wish, otherwise forget it. 

It sure will stop the bullet from moving forward, but if it does you just changed your OAL. If you had a load that did move under recoil, I'd rather count on a crimp keeping it at the OAL I designed the load for rather than letting the magazine do it for me.

 However, if you have any doubt on how well neck tension alone will hold a bullet, use a collet puller on a round that's been sitting around for awhile. For me at least, they feel like they're glued in. I distorted a few having to clamp down so hard to pull it, and they sure were not that hard to seat when I loaded them.

[fastchicken]

Wrong button

[tacklebury]

Bullet crimping is irrelivant for bolt guns, the magazine face stops bullets in the box from moving forward during firing.  Speer knows what they're talking about, if the bullet has a cannalure use it if you wish, otherwise forget it.

Drop one of these on it's nose with neck tension only and see if you still have the same COL.  I have to seat these just past the cannelure, but the FCD still lets me crimp lightly.  Crimp also helps during loading, unloading and transport to maintain COL.  Just sayin, it's not ONLY about the bullet moving in the firearms magazine.  There are several powders I've played with that do much worse without crimps too.