What do you think of this? Natural gas to run cars and trucks

[DalesCarpentry]

 What do you think of this? Natural gas to run cars and trucks. I have not looked into it but could my pickup truck be converted to run on natural gas and what would the cost to do so be? I am just talking about a ball park figure. Dale Natural Gas: The Industry That Could Save AmericaBy Brian Stoffel, The Motley Fool Posted 6:30AM 02/24/12 Energy, Economy  184Comments Text Size       Make no mistake about it: the American economy is in the throes of the longest, most protracted recovery since the Great Depression. But there is an industry offering a beacon of hope, and it could soon serve as the tipping point that gets America back to work: natural gas.

With the onset of new technologies to get to natural gas, this once-underappreciated commodity is now viewed as the key to weaning the U.S. from our heavy oil consumption and crucial to providing energy independence (in as little as 20 years, by some estimates).

As much as "energy independence" has a nice ring to it, even better is what it's going to take to achieve it. Converting the country to natural gas will require lots of hard work -- and lots of workers -- which is exactly what the U.S. needs to pull it out of the unemployment doldrums.

The Case for Conversion

In 2011 the U.S. Energy Information Administration came out with their projections for fuel cost trends during the next 25 years. Consider these estimates, which show the cost for one gallon of petroleum-based fuels as opposed to a gallon-equivalent of natural gas fuels:


Source: U.S. Energy Information Administration, Annual Energy Outlook 2011.
Natural gas assumes 7.9 gallons per 1,000 cubic feet.


As you can see, the advantages of switching to natural gas are clear. So long as a gallon gas equivalent of natural gas costs significantly less than petroleum-based fuels, there will be growing demand for vehicles that run on natural gas.
The switch is already taking place, too: The first industry that's taken the leap of faith on natural gas is trucking.


  Westport Innovations (WPRT) designs engines that can run solely on natural gas. Lately, the company has announced a number of joint ventures, partnerships, and orders. The company already has a profitable joint venture with manufacturer Cummins (CMI). And that joint venture just won a contract from trucking giant Navistar (NAV).

While what's happening at Westport, Cummins, and the like is a strong indication that the conversion to natural gas is speeding up significantly, these companies alone can't employ enough Americans to accelerate a recovery.

The jobs -- the big jobs that will put droves of Americans back to work -- will be in infrastructure.

The next great build-out

Right now there are only 1,100 natural gas filling stations in the country. That's less than 1% of the total number of fueling locations nationwide.

Clean Energy Fuels (CLNE) is currently putting enough natural gas stations on the interstate system to support the trucking industry. But it won't be enough once it becomes clear to the broader public that the switchover to natural gas is a smart, cost-effective move.

Other industries will soon follow to keep up with demand. When that happens, construction will need to ramp up on a huge scale to start adding fueling stations throughout the country. That, in turn, will create a bevy of new jobs.

If you don't think that sounds like enough to help jump-start our economy, consider these facts:
 

• About 40% of jobs lost during the recession came from a contraction in construction -- 2 million directly from construction workers being out of work, and 1.6 million due to those unemployed workers cutting back on spending.
• Even if the natural gas station build-out equates to just 33% of the total number of standard gas stations in America, roughly 39,000 stations would need to be built, providing hundreds of thousands of new jobs to laborers, contractors, and sub-contractors. While 33% is a long way to go from where we are today, if the natural gas revolution gets traction, that's where we're headed.
• This doesn't even touch on the demand for labor from natural gas extractors that's to be expected, or the possibilities of jobs created through the exportation of natural gas.

Obviously, this conversion won't happen overnight. But where there are incentives to switch over to natural gas, developments have been accelerating.

Right now, the chronically unemployed and underemployed can use any good news they can get their hands on. The stars will soon be aligning for these folks, and that should be music to all of our ears.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/02/24/natural-gas-the-industry-that-could-save-america/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl7%7Csec3_lnk1%26pLid%3D138131

[mechanic]

Dale, I work on forklifts, so I can tell you the technology is not new, but also not widely accepted.  Propane fuel is the most common.  A 7 gallon, or 33# tank of it is pressurized to about 280 psi, and will run a forklift about a shift.  To get the same out of natural gas, it would have to be pressurized to about ten times that....hence the problem.  Once the gas leaves the tank, the end result is about the same as the propane...clean burning and efficient, especially in an engine designed for it.
 
Will it be practical to convert autos to it?  It would be on a large scale, if they came manufactured that way, and enough filling areas were available.  Would it be practical to convert a vehicle you already have?  Nope.  Especially a computer controlled vehicle.  Too many changes to make for it to be economically feasible.
 
We also have forklifts running on hydrogen.....but they extract the hydrogen from natural gas...so why not just use the natural gas?  Beats me.
 
Ben

[smokehouserex]

 
 
  Hey DalesCarpentry:
 
  A lot of the gas companies have used NGor LP in many of their vehicles for some time. I really the Big Companies would jack the price up equal to gasoline prices, just remember when diesel was cheaper than gas,, look at it now. They are not going to let us get by with having a good price on something that we have to have when they can make millions off of us.
  JMO
  HM

[Curtis]

I really the Big Companies would jack the price up equal to gasoline prices

Yep, I remember in the '70s when gasoline went up from around $0.59 to $.079 per gallon and propane could be had for a paltry $0.39 per gallon.  A bunch of folks converted their farm trucks to propane since some of them had tractors already running it.  It wasn't long before propane was ten cents more expensive than gasoline.  Coincidence or not, it didn't pan out for the ones who spent the money for the conversion.
Curtis

[Conan The Librarian]

A thirty year projection for fuel costs? I remember seeing graphs that projected there would be no fuel by 2000.


There are a few companies and bus lines that run their fleets on natural gas. Or at least there were a few years ago. Haven't seen one in at least a year.




Interesting that alcohol, wind, solar, electricity and coal dust are not on the graph.

[streak]

 
  Hey DalesCarpentry:
 
  A lot of the gas companies have used NGor LP in many of their vehicles for some time. I really the Big Companies would jack the price up equal to gasoline prices, just remember when diesel was cheaper than gas,, look at it now. They are not going to let us get by with having a good price on something that we have to have when they can make millions off of us.
  JMO
  HM

We are wallowering in natural gas, prices are low and more coming online!
They already have technology for this type of fuel just want get the friggin infrastructure underway! Some of the Oil& Gas companies already have many of their company vehicles already running on natural gas. Some of these vehicles already have range of 300 to 350 miles to a full tank! Of course the old fat sow( U,S. Gov`t) is not promoting this technology like they should.

[PHATINJUN]

I work at Fritolay (Pepsico) in Beloit Wi. We have a project that we just started there that we are installing a filling station of sorts...lot more to it than that but we have 12 brand new tractors being delivered that will run on this fuel. Pepsico is converting. I do not have all the #'s handy but after ours is completed all the testing will determine whether we will go national with it. We have the 12 trucks coming this yr and something like 50 next yr. We were chosen for this rollout because we have one of the Canadian high pressure pipe lines that runs thru our property. One of the decisions they are trying to make right now is do we put in a filling station for the public as we are right off the interstate to try and make the money to pay for the weekly maint. of the system which is reported to be about $1500 a week. As to your ? Dale there are very few filling stations around at this point. There are other trucking companies using this technology. We have somewhere between 75-100 rigs @ our facility and thousand around the country. Personally cost wise converting to and refining your own bio diesel is way more cost effective for personal vehicles. There is weeks worth of reading and research avail. on the internet. Kurt

[Sourdough]

Several Cities run their fleets, buses, trucks, and cars on Natural gas.  Have been for years, just sort of keeping it quite.  Most forklifts used inside are powered by Propane.  Mining equipment is powered by either propane or gas. 

Here in Fairbanks we are dying for energy.  We have all that natural gas on the slope, but no body will build a gas line.  If we could get it here, we would convert our vehicles to burn it like cities do down south.  Gasoline engines can be converted.  Not sure about diesels. 

[mechanic]

I use to have RV with an Onan gen set which ran on both propane or gasoline...not much mod required....actually just looked like a barb-b-cue gas regulator running gas into the venturi of the carb on the engine. You good switch back and forth between fuels.
 
..TM7

Ahh...the good old days!  Now many of these engines must meet emission standards, which makes conversion more expensive and difficult.  Propane is a viable alternative if it were offered as an option by carmakers.  We can order forklifts that way, where just a few years ago we converted them ourselves.  Same with natural gas.  Nat. gas must be pressurized to a couple  thousand psi, which makes fillups a matter for someone with some knowledge, meaning some self serve stations could not be so any more.  Small hurdles really, if we committed to it, it could be done. 
 
Ben

[LONGTOM]

I use to own a International road tractor (single axle semi) that ran on propane. (should be named pro PAIN!!!)
This was a factory truck built to run on it.
No where near the power or fuel mileage.
I ran non stop to Little Rock Ark. and back every three weeks.
In the off weeks I ran to Atlanta Ga, Amsterdam NY, Shelbyville KY, Harrisburg PA.
I love to drive at night but try and find a gas company that is open past 5:PM to refuel.
If you do find one it is almost always on some back street.
Not good when you are 65" long and almost 14' tall.
Don't even think of running out along the hwy.
They will come out along the road for a price!
My truck had two 55 gal tanks but most places will only fill them to 80% because of the heat expansion.
I was able to talk them into filling mine to 95% because it would be empty in about 8 to 10 hours so expansion was not an issue.
It does burn clean and the inside of a motor will look like new with over 100,000 mile on it.
Cost wise there really wasn't that much difference between it and gas and at the time diesel was about .10 cents a gal cheaper.
I converted it over to run on gasoline with a carb but had lots of trouble.
The seats in the heads are not made to run gasoline.
Dropped a seat out of one head.
Cracked the head and busted two pistons.
LP is just not the way to go for a heavy truck.
Might be OK for a car or pickup but I would never own another one.
Had a fork lift that ran on LP also.
Always running out in the middle of a job.
Stop and go have the tank filled until I got an extra tank but still a PAIN!!!
 
 
LONGTOM

[Will Bison]

Not to cloud the issue further but CH4 (methane, nat gas) has a density of about .46 when liqified. Auto gasoline density is about .74. Thus the energy content in a gallon of nat gas is less so your milage may vary.

[Empty Quiver]

You sir, will never personally save money. Not in the foreseeable future anyway. Many obstacles to overcome, availability of LNG being the most insurmountable. Imagine buying a new electric car knowing full well there are only a half dozen power outlets in the country save the one in your garage.


A pick-up would be good because you can carry a motorcycle to ride home to get the tow truck to haul it home for a refuel should you run out in a traffic jam. A person would simply have to rethink fueling, aviation or marine thought process I suppose. This would further reduce range, 300 mile range would be more like 200 for me because there is no way in h    I would take a chance on running low or heaven forbid empty.


If however you locate to a corridor where the fuel will be test marketed, it might be viable. This assumes it works out in the end and you aren't faced with modifying it to run on gasoline after 5 months.


Cutting edge is Okay bleeding edge not so much. I have owned a few bleeding edge technologies and been bitten in the ass, a couple were ahead of the curve and worked out nicely. I have tried to move to cutting edge and shy away from bleeding edge now
 

[kennyd]

All the NG or propane setups I have seen fill the whole trunk or pickup bed (so much for hauling anything), and still give a short range.


For the forseeable future I will stick with my truck; it just passed the emission "short" test with 135000 miles.  A hybrid makes more sense, except for the price and the DIRTY batteries.

[LONGTOM]

All the NG or propane setups I have seen fill the whole trunk or pickup bed (so much for hauling anything), and still give a short range.


For the forseeable future I will stick with my truck; it just passed the emission "short" test with 135000 miles.  A hybrid makes more sense, except for the price and the DIRTY batteries.

Wouldn't know why they would need so much space.
Like I said, my road tractor had two tanks that held 55gal each.
One would be all that is needed on a pickup.
They make smaller ones also.
That is it for the bed.
Could be mounted under the bed inside the frame.
You do need to get to the fill coupler and the tank must be vented with a small valve that is able to open to let off the air pressure as the tank is being filled.
Don't put your skin in contact with the gas that will come out when the tank is almost full as it will freeze anything it comes in contact with.
LP is a liquid and extreamly cold.
The vent on the tank when filling will form ice around it.
Froze a fly I caught once while filling then threw it against the ground.
The fly broke apart into small pieces. Neat!
The rest of the system is a high pressure steel braided hose that runs to the regulator, (takes the place of your carb) and a electric shut off valve in the main line to stop the pressure when the motor is off.
At least that is all that was on my truck & fork lift.
 
 
LONGTOM

[Curtis]

Froze a fly I caught once while filling then threw it against the ground.

I had forgotten how attracted those green bottle flies are to the smell of the vented gas.  Back in the early 80s I drove a propane forklift and during summer by the time I was finished filling there was quite a swarm of them buzzing around.
 
Curtis

[Bugflipper]

I run lpg in an off road rig. The benefits are more power. High octane level. Less cost than gas when consumption rate is factored in. No flooding or starving of engine on extremely steep hills as a carb does. Less oil changes. It's recommended to change the oil every 12,000 miles. I don't put that many on it so I just change in the spring and it's still amber colored. It doesn't go bad. It automatically compensates for altitude. And spark plugs last a lot longer.
 I can run a 5 gallon tank all day for normal trail riding. I usually run a 10 gallon tank for more serious off roading and have plenty left over. When I go a couple hundred miles away to an off road meet I put in a 40 gallon tank sideways in the bed. It is enough for 2 days of all day trail riding and the trip there and back. In the winter I run the 40 gallon tank as well for added weight.


 LPG gets lower mpg than gas. If you buy in bulk in the summer it's a lot cheaper. I think it's usually quoted as 40% cheaper than burning gasoline when the extra consumption is considered. I dropped 3 mpg on the highway. It's only driven to go trail riding and in the winter when conditions are too bad for my daily driver scout to make it the 50 miles to work. BTW the refueling isn't a huge hassle as long as you are not traveling. At home I have a hose to fill the little tanks off the big tank. Mine would have been about $1000, but I bought it used for $200. It was for a 350 but does fine for my 392. Some are just for forklifts and they sell them for automobiles as a cheaper kit. Folks say to stay away from them, that they are nothing but trouble and reduce power.

[BUGEYE]

there is one NG station in this county and they don't sell to the public.
the biggest problem in converting a car or truck is the NG tank which is very expensive and large.
also, the NG compressor is the noisiest contraption in the world.

[LONGTOM]

My road tractor had less power on LP.
Gasoline gave me one full gear higher on the hills.
 
 
LONGTOM

[mechanic]

Older engines lost about 10% of their power on propane or nat. gas.  Modern computer controlled engines really give up nothing.  The problem with a modern engine is, however, it must be designed by the manufacturer to meet EPA specs., and any modification, even to change a component like an O2 sensor, must then be tested and approved. 
As a mechanic, if I modify a system at all, I am subject to fines, and my employer to higher ones.  Just a few years ago, I could convert an automobile for about $1000.00 to propane.  Natural gas was somewhat higher, but hardly anyone had the pump to fill the tanks.
 
Nowadays, there is no conversion kit available outside the factories to my knowledge.
 
Ben

[Hooker]

Until the price of propane went out of site I ran all my pickups on it.
It was half the price of gasoline and only cut my fuel mileage by 2 mpg so it made it efficient.
My pickups were able to run on both gasoline and propane at the flip of a switch making it versatile.
Problem is that with propane and NG in order to get any distance you have to have a large tank.
NG has to be compressed which takes a lot more time to fuel up a vehicle.
NG also has a nasty habit of not staying in the tank slowly leaking down in the time space of a weekend.
Some NG vehicles have ability to run also on gasoline this helps, but the initial cost of the vehicle wipes out any savings you will get at the pump.

Diesel engines can be converted to run on NG but horsepower will suffer. There are some Bi-Fuel diesels that run on NG and diesel the more horsepower needed the less NG is fed to the engine. Not really an efficient system for a vehicle smaller than a freight train.


Pat

[tobster]

It seems a lot of people confuse natural gas with L.P.  For a while the electric company had the meter readers driving little pick-up trucks with some kind of tank in the back- I'm guessing L.P?  We had a lot of  natural gas available in deer camp but that's a another story.............

[PHATINJUN]

BugEye there are many more than one LNG filling places in the US. The first 12 tractors we have coming are from Cummins and they have a ton of technology in them. The fuel is to be stored in I think 4 tanks on the tractor then there is the compressor stuff that makes 3-4000 PSI. Not supposed to hurt power if anything they may produce more power the range of what we are putting in has been reported to us @ 4-450 miles a fuel load. the fuel efficency is such that our plant alone is starting with 12 new rigs and the infrastruture total this yr is a bit more than 3million $$. Some of this is coming from the State of WI grants. Part of our problem with doing the public thing is we have no intrest in making it more profitable for Coke trucks or some of the snack food industry trucks to be able to benefit from our investments. It is a technology that the auto industry will finally have to get on board with as it's future I think will be better than this run on battery power farce thats been going on for yrs. As someone else said this fuel is very good for the internal parts of an engine which is part of the reason the auto industries are not very resposive to it. I am not a vehicle mechanic so most of this information that I have is just coming from within my work world. My biggest fear with it is once they get every thing converted over then they jack up the price just because they know we have to pay it. I will keep my gas burners cause when every thing else is runnin LNG the price of regular will drop to 4 cents a gallon but the tax will still be $2 per gallon   Kurt 

[BUGEYE]

phatinjun, that was "county" not country.
the one station here only sells to state and federal vehicles and the occasional county vehicle.

[Empty Quiver]

. My biggest fear with it is once they get every thing converted over then they jack up the price just because they know we have to pay it. I will keep my gas burners cause when every thing else is runnin LNG the price of regular will drop to 4 cents a gallon but the tax will still be $2 per gallon   Kurt

This is exactly how it will work. E-85 is always $0.40 per gallon more than E-15 really? no kidding? a coincidence I'm sure.    Midgrade always $0.10 more than regular which is always $0.20 less than premium, really? another coincedence?  The simple truth is nothing is priced in relation to cost. The price reflects what people will pay. Corporate competition stifles gouging, when there is enough competition. Two players? uh not so much, 5 players plenty of cut throat being played now. 

[PHATINJUN]

Sorry Bugeye my bad... must be my non Bugeye readin   Kurt