Author Topic: Scalping Question  (Read 1677 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline HWooldridge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 304
Scalping Question
« on: October 14, 2003, 10:52:30 AM »
My wife teaches sixth grade and the class read a novel where the good guy gets scalped and lives.  I have heard of these instances but the kids wanted to see a photo.  Does anyone know of a website or book that might have an old picture of someone who suffered thru this?  Thanks, H

Offline Capt Hamp Cox

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
Scalping Question
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2003, 03:06:09 PM »
Can't come up with a photo of a scalping victim who survived, but here's a link to the story of a Texan who did:

http://www.theoutlaws.com/people4.htm
Careful is a naked man climbin' a bobwire fence.  

Offline Dan Chamberlain

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 406
Watch yer topknot!
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2003, 01:58:43 AM »
Mad Mose, former husband of Crazy Woman, suffered that fate.  They say he never really recovered.  He hunted Crow indian with a passion until they got him.  John Johnston's crowd had a number of colorful characters.

Dan C

Offline MOGorilla

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 234
Scalping Question
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2003, 02:11:52 AM »
Does anyone know the origin of scalping.  I am a history buff and in the last 20 years or so have heard the colonists brought it with them.  I do know that our Anglo-Saxon ancestors did take scalps and made cups from the skulls of their enemies, but that was during the migration period, 450-745 a.d.   The Celts were fond of head hunting, and may have made drinking cups as well from the skulls.  Myths of the Celts and Norse abound with people who collected beards from fallen warriors.  I find that these items, like the bow or alcohol are "discovered" numerous times independently around the world, do we know the natives were or were not scalping before the arrival of Europeans?

Offline HWooldridge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 304
Scalping Question
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2003, 03:15:21 AM »
There is a paper on the Internet that discusses the history of scalping (search under Scalping) and evidence that it was here long before the white man came from various digs in the Midwest.  The Indians massacred and scalped their enemies as a form of conquest and mutiliation so they would be miserable in the afterlife.  That's also the reason for crushing bones, decapitation, etc. because they believed a person carried those wounds into the next life so they wanted to inflict as much as possible on an enemy.  It was also considered an accomplishment to scalp women and children because it showed the warriors safety perimeter around a camp had been penetrated.  There is a story of a Creek warrior who observed a camp for several days then killed two women in direct view of the occupants and got away.  He was elevated to a war chief upon return to his tribe.

Offline Holiday

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 474
  • Gender: Male
    • http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-holidayhayes
Scalping Question
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2003, 01:21:06 PM »
Well, I have no proof to back up what I am about to say, so you can take it for what it is worth. Louis L'amour writes about Desoto's men observing Indians with scalps. He also mentions other examples, but I don't recall them at this time. This would have been waaaayyy before the French encouraged the indians to take scalps in the French and Indian war. I wonder if the concept of taking scalps as a proof of bounty was what the Euopeans really introduced. Before, according to Mr. L'amour, the native peoples took scalps as war trophies. After, the French PAID them for scalps.  Any way, this is just my thoughts. Hope it helps.
Holiday Hayes
Darksider, Gunfighter
"Just a simple Cowboy, tryin' ta git along"

Offline williamlayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
Scalping Question
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2003, 09:53:18 PM »
this is goin way back in tha memorie bank but i believe an examination of every culture will reveal tha takin of something from a foe--where ya thank tha toast "skoll" comes frum--heads, ears, ect.--scalps are jest a part of this. seems this could go back to satan taking souls-same thought really--but that is another discussion fer another time.
blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Capt Hamp Cox

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
Scalping Question
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2003, 09:43:16 AM »
The following narrative is excerpted from:

LETTERS AND NOTES ON THE
MANNERS, CUSTOMS, AND CONDITIONS OF
NORTH AMERICAN INDIANS
by George Catlin
(First published in London in 1844)

LETTER. No. 29.

MOUTH OF TETON RIVER, UPPER MISSOURI.

"As I have introduced the scalping-knife above, it may be well for me to give some further account in this place of the custom and the mode of taking the scalp; a custom practiced by all the North American Indians, which is done when an enemy is killed in battle, by grasping the left hand Into the hair on the crown of the head, and passing the knife around it through the skin, tearing off a piece of the skin with the hair, as large as the palm of the hand, or larger, which is dried, and often curiously ornamented and preserved, and highly valued as a trophy. The scalping is an operation not calculated of itself to take life, as it only removes the skin, without injuring the bone of the head; and necessarily, to be a genuine scalp, must contain and show the crown or center of the head; that part of the skin which lies directly over what the phrenologists call "self-esteem," where the hair divides and radiates from the center; of which they all profess to be strict judges, and able to decide whether an effort has- been made to produce two or more scalps from one head. Besides taking the scalp, the victor generally, if he has time to do it without endangering his own scalp, cuts off and brings home the rest of the hair, which his wife will divide into a great many small locks, and with them fringe off the seams of his shirt and his leggings, as will have been seen in many of the illustrations; which also are worn as trophies and ornaments to the dress, and then are familiarly called "scalp-locks." Of these there are many dresses in my Collection, which exhibit a continuous row from the top of each shoulder, down the arms to the wrists, and down the seams of the leggings, from the hips to the feet, rendering them a very costly article to buy from the Indian, wile is not sure that his success in his military exploits will ever enable him to replace them.

The scalp, then, is a patch of the skin taken from the head of an enemy killed in battle, and preserved and highly appreciated as the record of a death produced by the hand of the individual who possesses it; and may oftentimes during his life, be of great service to a man living in a community where there is no historian to enrol the names of the fellows to record the heroic deeds of the brave, who have gained their laurels in mortal combat with their enemies; where it is as lawful and as glorious to slay an enemy in battle, as it is in Christian communities; and where the. poor Indian is bound to keep the record himself, or be liable to lose it and the honour, for no one in the tribe will keep it for him. As the scalp is taken then as the evidence of a death, it will easily be seen, that the Indian has no business or inclination to take it from the head of the living; which I venture to say is never done in North America, unless it be, as it sometimes has happened, where a man falls in the heat of battle, stunned with the blow of a weapon or a gunshot, and the Indians, rushing over his body, snatches off his scalp, supposing him dead, who afterwards rises from the field of battle, and easily recovers from this superficial wound of the knife, wearing a bald spot on his head during the remainder of his life, of which we have frequent occurrences on our Western frontiers. The scalp must be from the head of an enemy also, or it subjects its Possessor to disgrace and infamy who carries it. There may be many instances where an Indian is justified in the estimation of his tribe in taking the life of one of his own people ; and their laws are such, as oftentimes make it his imperative duty; and yet no circumstances, however aggravating, will justify him or release him from the disgrace of taking the scalp.

There is no custom practiced by the Indians, for which; they are more universally condemned, than that of taking the scalp; and, at the same time, I think there is some excuse for them, inasmuch as it is a general custom of the country, and founded, like many other apparently absurd and ridiculous customs of these people, in one of the necessities of Indian life, which necessities we are free from in the civilized world, and which customs, of course, we need not and do not practice. From an ancient custom, "time out of mind," the warriors of these tribes have been in the habit of going to war, expecting to take the scalps of their enemies whom they may slay in battle, and all eyes of the tribe are upon them, making it their duty to do it; so from custom it is every man's right, and his duty also, to continue and keep up a regulation of his society,.which it is not in his power as an individual, to abolish or correct, if he saw fit to do it.

One of the principal denunciations against the custom of taking the scalp, is on account of its alleged cruelly, which it certainly has not; as the cruelty would be in the Killing, and not in the act of cutting the skin from a man's head after he is dead. To say the most of it, it is a disgusting custom, and I wish I could be quite sure that the civilized and Christian world (who kill hundreds, to where the poor Indians kill one), do not often treat their enemies dead, in equally as indecent and disgusting a manner, as the Indian does by taking the scalp.

If the reader thinks that I am taking too much pains to defend the Indians for this, and others of their seemingly abominable customs, he will bear it in mind, that I have lived with these people, until I have learned the necessities of Indian life in which these customs are founded; and also, that I have met with so many acts of kindness and hospitality at the hands of the poor Indian, that I feel bound, when I can do it, to render what excuse I can for a people, who are dying with broken hearts, and never can speak in the civilized world in their own defense.

And even yet, reader, if your education, and your reading of Indian cruelties and Indian barbarities -- of scalps, and scalping-knives, and scalping, should have ossified a corner of your heart against these unfortunate people, and would shut out their advocate, I will annoy you no longer on this subject, but withdraw, and leave you to cherish the very beautiful, humane and parental moral that was carried out by the United States and British Governments during the last, and the revolutionary wars, when they mutually employed thousands of their "Red children," to aid and to bleed, in fighting their battles, and paid them, according to contract, so many pounds, shillings and pence or so many dollars and cents for every "scalp" of a "red" or a blue coat" they could bring in!

In a drawing, there will be seen the principal modes in which the scalps are prepared, and several of the uses to which they are put. The most usual way of preparing and dressing the scalp is that of stretching it on a little hoop at the end of a stick two or three feet long, for the purpose of "dancing it," as they term it; which will be described in the scalp-dance, in a few moments. There are many again, which are small, and not "dressed;" sometimes not larger than a crown piece, and hung to different parts of the dress. In public shows and parades, they are often suspended from the bridle bits or halter when they are paraded and carried as trophies. Sometimes they are cut out, as it were into a string, the hair forming a beautiful fringe to line the handle of a war-club. Sometimes they are hung at the end of a club, and at other times, by the order of the chief, are hung out, over the wigwams, suspended from a pole, which is called the "scalp-pole". This is often done by the chief of a village, in a pleasant day, by his erecting over his wig-warn a pole with all the scalps that he had taken, arranged upon it; at the sight of which all the chiefs and warriors of the tribe, who had taken scalps, "follow suit"; enabling every member of the community to stroll about the village on that day and "count scalps", learning thereby the standing of every warrior, which is decided in a great degree by the number of scalps they have taken in battles with their enemies. In yet another sketch shows the usual manner of taking the scalp, and (letter h), exhibits the head of a man who had been scalped and recovered from the wound.

So much for scalps and scalping, of which I shall yet say more, unless I should unluckily lose one before I get out of the country."

The complete text is at:  http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/catlin/letter29.html

The following sites provide considerable historical scalping info:  

http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/naind/html/na_034800_scalpsandsca.htm

http://www.sfaa-archery.com/Articles/Scalping/scalping.html

http://www.csasi.org/2000_january_journal/antiquity_of_scalping.htm

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/HNS/Scalpin/oldfolks.html

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/HNS/Scalpin/children.html
Careful is a naked man climbin' a bobwire fence.  

Offline williamlayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
Scalping Question
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2003, 11:59:16 AM »
that was fun, and informative. thanx for the research. ya done good, as well,er always.
amazing how the customs seem to parallel each other in different cultures. are we to complain when we see what is hung on tha rearview mirrors of WARRIORS of america, :roll:  :-D  :-D
blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Capt Hamp Cox

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
Scalping Question
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2003, 09:14:20 AM »
All this talk has made me hungry for some scalped potatoes.
Careful is a naked man climbin' a bobwire fence.  

Offline williamlayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
Scalping Question
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2003, 11:05:43 AM »
well, dang it all, i knowed ya wernt gonna let me get in tha last word.
well fer all tha world ta know--well this little part of tha world we visit anyway--ya got in tha last word--I CONCEDE, dang uppity no count sargent or whatever. i QUIT.
there- happy
blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline J.W.Neely

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 128
    • http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=Dragoons-sptia
Scalping Question
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2003, 05:24:54 PM »
Quote
Does anyone know the origin of scalping

I'm sure the IRS is the Founding Father.

Offline Capt Hamp Cox

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
Scalping Question
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2004, 02:38:10 PM »
The Hair Buyer of Detroit
Michigan - A Guide to the Wolverine State
by the Writer's Program of the Work Projects Administration

During the American Revolution, the very name of Detroit was enough to send a shudder through every American patriot. That was when the settlement's British governor, Henry Hamilton, was known as 'the Hair Buyer of Detroit.' Under his direction, whole armies of Indians, armed with red-handled scalping knives, were dispatched against frontier homes and communities. Among the State papers of Virginia, In Council, June 18, 1779, is the following: 'It appears that Governor Hamilton gave standing rewards for scalps, but offered none for prisoners, which induced the Indians, after making their captives carry their baggage into the neighborhood of the fort, there to put them to death and carry in their scalps to the Governor, who welcomed their return and success by a discharge of cannon.'

http://www.adena.com/adena/usa/im/im004.htm
Careful is a naked man climbin' a bobwire fence.