HELP with 358 win. bullets gettin stuck

[trkyman1]

I am not new to reloading but I am having a problem I can't figure out. The gun is a browning a-bolt featherlight .358 winchester. I am having trouble with sierra 225 gr sp and speer 250 gr sp. When the magazine is loaded and the 1st shot fired the rest of the bullets in the magazine have the tips deformed. The next bullet will chamber but fits tight and if I try to open the bolt and remove the round the bullet gets stuck in the barrel and pulls out of the casing. This does not happen all the time. It also does not happen with 200gr hornadys or 225gr noslers. I have seated the bullets deeper and this still happens. The gun is very light and does have moderate recoil with the heavier loads. I believe these bullets may be so soft that the recoil is actually expanding the ogive of the bullet against the magazine but I have no way to be sure that is the problem and I have not heard of anyone else with this problem.The bullets do not appear tho be moving in the case at all. I need this gun to be ready for a moose hunt and wanted to use the 250gr speers but it needs to work properly. Anyone have a suggestion?

[yooper77]

If you are at or below the C.O.L for the 358 Winchester then maybe the depth needs to be shorter since the Sierra and Speer bullet ogives are probably different then the Nosler and Hornady bullets you have success with.
 
I chamber all my hand loads before a hunt to make sure they all function properly.
 
yooper77

[swifty22]

Trk- My guess is that the bullets are slipping forward under recoil and are then too long for the throat. Another guess is an over sized expander ball and or too much inside neck lube. Make sure the inside of the neck is lube free first and if that doesn't work then size without the expander ball to tighten the neck tension. If that works then I would chuck the expander ball in a drill or drill pess and polish the expander ball to a little smaller dia. till the bullets hold.  I would also degrease the bullets w/brake cleaner just before loading, in other words tighten up the neck tension. Also does it happen when shooting offhand as well as a bench? This could be an indication as offhand lets the rifle move more in recoil and inertia imparted to the bullet would be less, Also just to see if they are moving use a sharpie to mark the bullet at the case mouth. Not knowing anything about the throating of your rifle it might only take a very few thou. to stick a bullet in the rifling. See if you can find some 250 gr. Grand Slams and crimp using new cases if you can find some and as yooper said run them all through both the magazine and chamber before hunting. BTW Congrats or going Moose Huntin'-Its a gas-Muddy   

[trkyman1]

All the bullets cycle, it is after the shot the next bullet chambered gets stuck.[coming from the magazine not loaded one at a time] I have already marked the bullets to see if they move and they do not. I can also start a bullet in the case mouth,put it in the rifle,slam the bolt shut,and that bullet and casing will come right back out.Bullet seating depth is not the issue. I have tried different depths and the bullet is not moving in the case mouth after fireing. I still think the ogive is getting expanded from recoil in the magazine but I do not know how to check that. I should also say I have been using all new factory casing. I did not resize any casings for this load.

[Dave in WV]

Rifle magazine has a gunsmithing article about installing two thin strips of metal in the magazine box to stop cartridges moving forward due to recoil.

[yooper77]

I have never heard of and seriously doubt the ogive is getting expanded. If the ogive is expanding then there is a terrible issue with both Speer and Sierra bullets, which I don't believe is the case.
 
I hand load for the 7mm-08 Remington in a Weatherby Mark V sporter rifle. I loaded some Hornady 139 and 154 grain bullets at or slightly under COL, but I have some old Herters 140 grain bullets and I need to seat these bullets very deep well under COL since the ogive is very differant from the Hornady's. I have stopped using the Herters 140 grain bullets in the 7mm-08 Remington and will shoot them up in my 7x57 Mauser Ackely Improved which has a longer throat probably made for 175 grain bullets.
 
yooper77

[swifty22]

Trkyman, This has got me buffaloed. I have stuck a lot of bullets since I started reloading in the early 60's and all of them were cause they were loaded too long. I always carry a hardware store steel rod or a multi piece steel cleaning rod whenever I go to shoot, especially when shooting cast. One thing I picked up on in your last post is that you didn't "resize" your casings prior to loading. With new factory brass it is always a good idea to run them through a full length sizer prior to loading to "iron out" dented case mouths out of round bodies ect. If you haven't done this give it a try as I still can only think that the bullets are slipping. The idea that the ogives are expanding could sound remotely possible but not at all plausable due to the strength of the jackets. I have fired many thousands of full power cast bullets in up to a 375 H&H and have never had a bullet expand in the magazine and they are FAR softer than any jacket bullet. Anyway good luck and make sure to keep us posted as this is quite interesting-Muddy

[trkyman1]

I will try resizing the new casings. I had the bullets marked with a fine sharpie to see if there was any movement but even .010-.020 is too hard to see. I agree it only makes sense that the bullets are moving forward. What does not make sense to me is that I can start a bullet with the seating die and put it in the rifle, close the bolt , and drive it right against the lands and it will not get stuck in the rifling. I need to buy another box of bullets before I try it again.
 Thanks for all the help and I will let you know how it turns out.

[Nobade]

Do you still have any bullets that wouldn't work? If you do, why not measure them and see what diameter they are. And if you have loaded ammo, measure the OAL and see if they are shorter or longer than they were when you loaded them. This way you'll know for sure.

[BBF]

Both of those bullets are long for a short case and neck.
Could you live with a 200 yard bullet for your moose hunt?
If so, I would suggest the 220 gr. Speer bullet, slightly crimped.

[oneoldsap]

                  The Cannelure on the Speer 220 doesn't even come close to working in the .358 Win. , so forget about crimping ! I think if you can increase neck tension , your problem will be solved . I've loaded just about every bullet suitable for The .358 Win. and have never had any problems . So I'm inclined to think that you are doing something to cause your problem , and when you get it figured out , you will have an epithany !

[trkyman1]

I will hopefully try it again this weekend.I shoot the hornady 200gr sp with no issues. I just wanted to use the 250 speer for the moose hunt and the 200gr hornady for everything else. I believe you are correct with the neck tension. The 1st 10-15 shots I used fully resized 308 brass and had no issues. I then used factory 358 brass without resizing the necks and I believe that is when the problem started. Thanks again for all the help.

[swifty22]

Trk- Glad it was that simple, I wouldn't give up on the 250 Speer yet, I would file the nose back to just above the end of the jacket to shorten the bullet as well as mitigate the recoil nose damage (ala Nosler protected point) and try them. The other bullet, and the one I would probably use for a 250 gr. is the Hornady round nose which is what I use in my 9x57 Mauser (and my buddy's 35 Win.) at about the same speed you can get from the 358, approx. 2300 fps. If you are going to use a 225 gr I would use the Nosler partition, and again file the nose back to just above the jacket. I have done this for years in my 308 HVA w/165 gr. partitions when they quit making the factory protected point in that weight. Again GOOD LUCK on your Moose hunt and please keep us posted-Muddy

[trkyman1]

I am wanting to try the hornady 250 but I can't make up my mind between the round nose or the spire point. Have you seen much difference between the two?

[swifty22]

Trk- Yes, At the striking velocity that will probably occur on a moose hunt I would most definately use the round nose as it will expand AND hold together. The spire point (designed for larger ctgs.) is an iffy thing as to expansion and you won't have a dime's worth of difference in bullet drop out to 200 yds. which would my limit on a moose with the 358. If it were me on the hunt I would go straight to the 225 gr. Nosler partition and never look back, with it you get good assured expansion and penetration as well as a little less bullet drop and higher striking velocity and somwhat less recoil, all to the good! The new Nosler manual indicates a little over 2550 w/ a 23" barrel for this bullet, but anything over 2350 would be fine w/me for it. Simply I would use that bullet as what you are doing is what it was designed for. I use a 338-06 with the 225 Nosler PT for deer, elk and black bear and if I get drawn for a Moose permit this year it will be what I carry -Muddy

[trkyman1]

I have tried the 225 partition for reasons you mentioned. It seemed like the perfect combo but I have tried them in two different rifles with different powders and they are the least accurate bullet of all in my guns. I just got done shooting the 250 speer with no problems now after resizing the factory casings. Thanks to all again. I also shot the barnes 200gr ttsx with good results. Two things I do not like about the barnes is it must be seated very deep which limits what powder you can use and copper fouling is 2-3 times greater than standard bullets.

[swifty22]

Trk- How do the Nosler's shoot? If they are 2.25" or less  at a hun. then no problem, Remember a Moose's lungs are a BIG target. You don't need 1" groups to hunt them but you do need the most effective bullet cause he/she may not be perfectly broadside and 2' of penetration might be required. The only one I ever got was a yearling Canadian bull (probably 700# or so) at about 80 yds. He was facing me and I shot him through the top of the heart with a 308 win. w/a factory Remington 180gr. ptd corelokt. Simply stood there about 15 seconds then went straight down, this was in 1970 so the older orig. corelokt const. not newer thinner jacket one. BTW where are you going to hunt the big ones?-Muddy 

[trkyman1]

Im heading to Newfoundland. I am saving my pennies cuz I am not wealthy. I always wanted to shoot a moose before I get to old to do it. The noslers shot around 2" but the 250 speers are cutting that in half. The 200 barnes ttsx is at one inch also. It just takes a lot longer to clean the rifle after shooting the barnes.

[swifty22]

Trk-Sorry I forgot all about it but go to 35cal.com, lotsa stuff about bullets ect-Muddy