Author Topic: .45-70 as Alternative to .30 for a Bullet Caster? (Read 700 times)

flmason · « **on:** March 03, 2012, 03:35:09 PM »

Hi All.
Bought a Mosin late last year. Began to realize that I'd just bought a gun that needs gas checks, paper patching or jacketed bullets for peak performance, due to it's .30 nominal diameter. Light cast loads a la C. E. Harris strike me as useless if you have a magnum handgun, for all practical purposes.

Was thinking that the selection of a .30 was perhaps an error, being a dyed in the wool reloader, grew up with reloading, kinda hard to change my stripes.

So was thinking, rather than get the .30-06 I've been debating over elsewhere, maybe the .45-70 is the way to go?

Here's what I'm thinking... It's always been a cast bullet caliber. Yes it has a rainbow trajectory past 100 yards, but it is a big heavy bullet. But... no need to buy jacketed, probably don't need gas checks, and can use anything from black powder to black substitutes to Trail Boss or modern smokeless.

And Handi is a platform I'm OK with. Cost vrs. performance there is fine by me. About the only .45-70 on my radar really.

Seems like one fine, versatile caliber for a hand loader who doesn't like to buy any more parts than necessary. Of course I guess one *could* go a step further there and just say... "Well use a 12 gauge smoothbore and slugs... same useful range, and you can use shot." Or the handgun route... "Just get a SRH in .454 Casull, but of course no shot loads there."

So other than the loss of the extreme long range shot, am I making a mistake in my thinking here?

Your thoughts? .45-70 make a sensible alternative as one's "All around North American Game Rifle?" vrs. the .30 cals. For that matter, does the SRH. Granted the SRH is way more pricey than the Handi.

keith44 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 03, 2012, 03:49:14 PM »

Military testing during the post civil war era was conducted using the .45-70-500 round in standard "trapdoor" rifles. The maximum effective range was determined to be 1/2 mile. This is for battle field use of course, and then there are those currently shooting semi-custom sharps clones at 1,000 yard steel plates. So don't automatically assume 100 yard only gun. It takes a lot of load development, and a lot of shooting, but the 150 - 200 yard distance is easily attainable. My Handi 45-70 shoots best with .459 - .460" plain base round nose or flat point 405 grainers cast from hammer lead mixed 50/50 with 90/10 lead tin alloy.

flmason · « **Reply #2 on:** March 03, 2012, 03:56:09 PM »

Quote from: keith44 on March 03, 2012, 03:49:14 PM

Military testing during the post civil war era was conducted using the .45-70-500 round in standard "trapdoor" rifles. The maximum effective range was determined to be 1/2 mile. This is for battle field use of course, and then there are those currently shooting semi-custom sharps clones at 1,000 yard steel plates. So don't automatically assume 100 yard only gun. It takes a lot of load development, and a lot of shooting, but the 150 - 200 yard distance is easily attainable. My Handi 45-70 shoots best with .459 - .460" plain base round nose or flat point 405 grainers cast from hammer lead mixed 50/50 with 90/10 lead tin alloy.

Oh yeah, I realize they can do long range. But I'm thinking point blank range without some sort of sight compensation is going to be significantly less than the higher velocity .30 cartridges. To be honest, have never been in a hunting situation where a shot longer than 100 was possible. What little hunting I've done was all in wooded areas.

So I haven't written the range potential off. Just thinking in practical terms it's going to be a bit like my SBH loadings have been... 6 o'clock hold at 50 yards... dead on at 100, aim high after that. By 150 yards I'm thinking I'd need help from the sights?

keith44 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 03, 2012, 04:34:46 PM »

To be honest, I don't bother holding under. I have until a few weeks ago had a 4x scope mounted. The side to side adjustments are most critical, so I ensure that is perfect. Then I zero the scope at 75 yards. With my load (starting to mid level Ruger 1 data) that gives me about 125 yard point blank range. That is 3 inches or less above and below the aim point. The Heavy part of the cross hairs just happened to be correct hold over for 175 yards (targets only) I have never had a shot a deer with the 45-70 that was over 50 yards. So if your experience is similar, then the factory sights should be fine. If there is a chance of 80 or 100 yard shots, or if you are going to keep the loads on the softer side (lever rifle and upper trapdoor levels) then you may want to sight in differently.

keith44 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 03, 2012, 04:38:43 PM »

I also recommend "Forty Years with the 45-70" by Paul Matthews, if you like to read.

flmason · « **Reply #5 on:** March 03, 2012, 05:06:39 PM »

Quote from: keith44 on March 03, 2012, 04:38:43 PM

I also recommend "Forty Years with the 45-70" by Paul Matthews, if you like to read.

I'll have to track that down. Sounds like an interesting read.

tacklebury · « **Reply #6 on:** March 04, 2012, 09:26:03 AM »

I have had 6" 250 yard groups several times using the Hornady 350 gr. FP bullets. No sight elevation, I just aimed at the top of the target board I was using and wallah. I use all iron sighs though and I'm pretty good at kentucky windage.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 04, 2012, 09:55:52 AM »

Yes, get the 45-70; though I do really like my 38-55s too, they are hard to find.
FWIW, Ive been shooting 30cal. for some years with cast bullets (with and without gas checks) and have pretty much settled on about 1450fps (a velo that doesnt require GCs). I use as large a diameter cast bullets as fits the fully fire-formed case neck and get no leading from basically WWt alloy with a 'dash' of tin to aid casting. I like the 30's and my pedestrian velo's., will do as well as most of the round ball muzzleloaders and early, well regarded cartridges, such as the 44-40, at 100yd. or more. How much game has been taken with them through the years. Fact is though, we usually expend far more rounds in playing than in actual hunting. If I were worried about bullet performance for hunting, I would play with cast bullets and use full house, premium hunting bullets for big game.

Duckdog · « **Reply #8 on:** March 04, 2012, 10:28:13 AM »

The 45/70 will do fne with cast bullets. I have killed many deer with both a 06 with cast and the 45/70 and they both do very good. Use a 340 gr FN or 405 gr FN and you'll be in good shape. Load them over 30 gr of XMP 5744 and you'll be in the 1500 fps range on the 340 and 1350 on the 405. You should get 1.5" grps @ 100 yds all day long.

twoshooter · « **Reply #9 on:** March 04, 2012, 03:29:44 PM »

In my experience it requires considerably more care, better equipment, better METAL, stricter procedures, to make good 30 cal cast loads than it does 45's. The 45/70 is very forgiving, easy keeper. I never use gas checks, stay @ or below 1500fps, and believe me a 340 or 500 gr bullet at 1400 fps does the job on anything in its way. My BC can shoot cloverleaf at my 75 yd range with the peeps. for longer ranges get a scope with multiple aiming points.

BBF · « **Reply #10 on:** March 04, 2012, 05:41:09 PM »

Have a look at .444 Marlin data.

flmason · « **Reply #11 on:** March 05, 2012, 05:33:33 PM »

Quote from: twoshooter on March 04, 2012, 03:29:44 PM

In my experience it requires considerably more care, better equipment, better METAL, stricter procedures, to make good 30 cal cast loads than it does 45's. The 45/70 is very forgiving, easy keeper. I never use gas checks, stay @ or below 1500fps, and believe me a 340 or 500 gr bullet at 1400 fps does the job on anything in its way. My BC can shoot cloverleaf at my 75 yd range with the peeps. for longer ranges get a scope with multiple aiming points.

Well, that's sort of the point I'm looking for confirmation on. The old way... bigger, heavier bullet is more forgiving than the newer, higher velocity approach. The trade off being a rounder trajectory.

I'm thinking for someone like me, who'd make the primers if there was a safe way to do it (LOL!) maybe getting 30-06 is a mistake, since it pretty much relies on higher than lead sort of velocities to attain it's edge. Whereas the .45-70 pretty much spans the two eras.

Always had decent luck with .44 mag and other rimmed pistol cartridges. So's why not just extend the idea? For me personally, I think of .30 cals as "sniper rifles", LOL! Fast, flat shooting, long range tools... that just happen to be good for hunting.

And besides, I just like break actions for no good reason I can think of, LOL! On paper they are clearly outdated. But they do handle nicely IMHO. And the simplicity appeals to me. Load it, cock it, shoot it. Straight forward, hard to mess up.

So what's the general opinion on .45-70 vrs. 12 gauge slugs, both smooth bore and rifled "shotguns". Out to say 100 yrds. any real differentiation? Though naturally the rifled options will shoot tighter groups. Any other tradeoffs I'm not aware of?

How do the Handi 45-70's do for practical purposes vrs. say a Ruger #3?

keith44 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 05, 2012, 08:58:58 PM »

Wow, are you on the fence or just want to act like a handi proctologist??

There have been a couple of posts about .45-70 vs slug gun. From what I read that comparison comes down to how much recoil do you want from the .45-70, as well as the type of slug and rifled or smooth bore. If smoothbore shooting old style slugs, the .45-70 wins in accuracy and range. If shooting newer sabot type slugs, well then it depends. If both are limited to 100 yards (not a bad idea with open sights, or while learning the gun) then the choice becomes what do you like, or what are you required to use.

As for comparing a Ruger 3 to the Handi, it depends (getting old ain't it

) The Ruger #3 had a steel but plate and would knock the dog stuffing out of you with full power loads, same can be said of the buffalo classic handi. Now the standard SB2 model has a decent recoil pad, and while hot loads will have your undivided attention, they don't hurt ... much.

From an accuracy point of view, it seems that it is easier (and cheaper) to get a Handi to shoot well, when compared to the Ruger single shots (#1, and #3). The Handi is more easily modified for accuracy improvements, where as the Ruger rifle needs an entirely different fore end hanger to float the barrel to get much improvement in accuracy.

Then there is the price of entry for the chosen club...

mechanic · « **Reply #13 on:** March 06, 2012, 12:58:56 AM »

I have two basic loads worked up. One is a 330gr. flat base hollow point, I cast from hard alloy. This is my hunting bullet, that I load to about 1750 fps. 200 yds is not a problem, though not point blank range.

The second is a 405 gr. hollow base from a Lee mold, I load with softer lead and push to about 1200 fps. This is my target load, and I've shot it to 800 yds. with a ladder sight.

Like anything else, a little shooting and you will get the trajectory down.

Easy to load for, not all that finicky, and accurate more than you will believe.

Ben

gcrank1 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 06, 2012, 03:33:37 AM »

45-70 vs 12 (or 20) ga.: Not that the slug guns arent accurate enough, many are, but the recoil, and cost per shot (even reloads) on the gauge rifles is way high.
H&R vs Ruger: Id love to have a No.1, but cant see as how one will shoot any better than my H&R, and I can shoot it for a long time before the gun, scope and reloads will even equal the cost of a Ruger alone.
30-06: Even at 1450fps the ballistic coefficient of a 180- -220ish gr. 30cal. bullet is way better than the 45-70 bullets, thus greatly improved wind and elev. factors. There is good reason the schuetzen shooters of old went to the smaller calibers for 200yd. matches; the groups (thus scores) got better.
Get the H&R 45-70 and play with it. If you end up not liking it, you will have little trouble finding a new home for it (read: somebody will be able to afford to buy it much easier). Mine is not for sale.

flmason · « **Reply #15 on:** March 06, 2012, 03:44:47 PM »

Quote from: keith44 on March 05, 2012, 08:58:58 PM

Wow, are you on the fence or just want to act like a handi proctologist??

There have been a couple of posts about .45-70 vs slug gun. From what I read that comparison comes down to how much recoil do you want from the .45-70, as well as the type of slug and rifled or smooth bore. If smoothbore shooting old style slugs, the .45-70 wins in accuracy and range. If shooting newer sabot type slugs, well then it depends. If both are limited to 100 yards (not a bad idea with open sights, or while learning the gun) then the choice becomes what do you like, or what are you required to use.

As for comparing a Ruger 3 to the Handi, it depends (getting old ain't it ) The Ruger #3 had a steel but plate and would knock the dog stuffing out of you with full power loads, same can be said of the buffalo classic handi. Now the standard SB2 model has a decent recoil pad, and while hot loads will have your undivided attention, they don't hurt ... much.

From an accuracy point of view, it seems that it is easier (and cheaper) to get a Handi to shoot well, when compared to the Ruger single shots (#1, and #3). The Handi is more easily modified for accuracy improvements, where as the Ruger rifle needs an entirely different fore end hanger to float the barrel to get much improvement in accuracy.

Then there is the price of entry for the chosen club...

LOL! Yeah, I debate this stuff with myself a lot.

Hate having buyer's remorse, I guess.

Still chasing that holy grail of "fewest guns that do everything".

Have owned 3 H&R's over the years. Two 12 ga. and one 20 ga. currently. So definitely been a buyer. But never the rifle. Took a liking to the idea after tripping over the Rossi Trifectas. But zip experience with shooting slugs. Hence the rambling. Not sure at practical distances that a 1 oz. slab of lead from a 12 or 20 ga. wouldn't do me as well, and just have one less gun to reload for, while having the option of shot.

But given my druthers, I'd just say, "Ah send me a .22, a 30-06, the .45-70, the 12 ga. a few scopes, and some reloading tools." LOL!

Easy to want a hole collection. Now if I could just talk them into making them out of something rust proof.

flmason · « **Reply #16 on:** March 06, 2012, 03:46:29 PM »

Quote from: mechanic on March 06, 2012, 12:58:56 AM

I have two basic loads worked up. One is a 330gr. flat base hollow point, I cast from hard alloy. This is my hunting bullet, that I load to about 1750 fps. 200 yds is not a problem, though not point blank range.

The second is a 405 gr. hollow base from a Lee mold, I load with softer lead and push to about 1200 fps. This is my target load, and I've shot it to 800 yds. with a ladder sight.

Like anything else, a little shooting and you will get the trajectory down.

Easy to load for, not all that finicky, and accurate more than you will believe.

Ben

Cool. What ladder sight are you using?

mechanic · « **Reply #17 on:** March 06, 2012, 04:48:56 PM »

Cool. What ladder sight are you using?

A kinda home made one, from flea bay, that was most likely originally off a jap 38 or 44.

lrrice · « **Reply #18 on:** March 07, 2012, 05:20:01 AM »

Get the 45-70, you wont have buyers remorse. It will eat just about anything you feed it including black powder and pistol powder. It is more fun to shoot than any other gun I own and you can load it from kiddie loads to kills on one end and maims on the other. Oh and start stocking up on lead, cause 400-500 grain bullets drain a pot in a hurry.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 07, 2012, 05:31:52 AM »

Mine likes the Lee 340 and 405gr. bullets just fine; basically WWt metal with just a dash of tin per pot.

flmason · « **Reply #20 on:** March 07, 2012, 03:45:38 PM »

Quote from: lrrice on March 07, 2012, 05:20:01 AM

Get the 45-70, you wont have buyers remorse. It will eat just about anything you feed it including black powder and pistol powder. It is more fun to shoot than any other gun I own and you can load it from kiddie loads to kills on one end and maims on the other. Oh and start stocking up on lead, cause 400-500 grain bullets drain a pot in a hurry.

Oh, I'm sold, LOL! Probably just a matter of "when" rather than "if" at this point.

Looks like yours might be one of the Gardner, Mass. guns?

BTW, does that tang sight ever bite you? Looks like it'd be in the web of your hand almost? Definitely l your sights though. Gives it an old timey buffalo rifle look.