Author Topic: 1891 Mauser ??????  (Read 2553 times)

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Offline tonygrz

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1891 Mauser ??????
« on: February 02, 2012, 04:24:10 PM »
I was a local shop recently and just got a glimpse of a military rifle that I think said 1891.  It was a mauser action and one the side of the bolt assembly said "Berlin".  Any idea what this rifle is ????


Thanks for your replies.


Tony
Life is great, don't screw it up with WORK !!!

Offline S.S.

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Re: 1891 Mauser ??????
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2012, 04:41:02 PM »
sorry if this posts several times, problem with internet.
The rifle was probably a model 1891 Argentine mauser
caliber 7.65x53. A beautifully made rifle. I still shoot mine
and it is extremely accurate.,
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline tonygrz

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Re: 1891 Mauser ??????
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2012, 10:20:36 AM »
Thanks for the reply.  The one modification I noticed was that someone has put a peep sight on the rifle.  Is the ammo hard to find???  I may go back and take a real close look at it.  He only wants $170 for it.  Is that fair???


Thanks,


tony

Life is great, don't screw it up with WORK !!!

Offline Mikey

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Re: 1891 Mauser ??????
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2012, 11:04:01 AM »
Tony:  as S.S. said, they are beautiful rifles and many who own them still shoot them.  Ammunitionis not that hard to find and the caliber, very effective I might add, is reloadable; brass and bullets (.311 diameter) are available if you are a reloader.
 
Is $170 fair.  No, it is a steal and if you don't go get it (like now probably) you could easily lose it.   

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: 1891 Mauser ??????
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2012, 04:41:33 PM »
The 7.65 Mauser is about a powerful as a 308 winchester.
Ammo is available in FMJ military and Soft point hunting loads.
Nice smooth action.  You would be happy if you purchased it.
Any of the old mausers are neat.
 

Offline tonygrz

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Re: 1891 Mauser ??????
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2012, 06:49:04 PM »
Went back to look at the rifle and was about to take out the checkbook when the owner said "You might want a gunsmith to look at it before you shoot it".  That sounded the alarm bells and I passed.
 
Tony
 
Life is great, don't screw it up with WORK !!!

Offline Mikey

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Re: 1891 Mauser ??????
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2012, 01:17:00 AM »
Tony:  the only reason you would want a gunsmith to look at it is to check the headspace.  You can visually check for any cracks in the frame or bolt handle and if the owner doesn't want you doing that then walk away from it.  If he says 'OK' and all appears well then have the gunsmith check the headspace and if it is ok, then you are good to go...

Offline Rex in OTZ

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Re: 1891 Mauser ??????
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2012, 11:54:39 AM »
I'd not want to generialize the power of the 7.65 Argentine as equal to the .308 winchester it came into being the same time as other ctgs of the age
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.65%C3%9753mm_Argentine
 I have a 1891 with a T86xxx serial number that was mfg around 1900, this particular action is not the stronger Mauser 98 receiver allot think it is.
 The 1891 Argentine was made by Ludwig Loewe and after Loewe combined with a German cartridge maker, DWM.

These were very fine rifles, but not nearly as strong as the later 1893-94-95-and 98 Mauser's.

During the between the war years, the 91 Mauser was a favorite of German custom hunting rifle makers for building light weight stalking rifles.

Argentine 1891 Mauser's were made in 29 inch rifles, and 17 inch cavalry carbines.

Many of these had the Argentine crest ground off the receiver ring after Argentine rifles started turning up in a war between two Central American countries.
When questioned about this, Argentina began grinding the crest off surplus rifles.
Later, this practice was ended and rifles with intact crests were again sold. Argentina surplused some of their stocks of outdated 1891 mausers to other south American countries.
Huge quantities of both the rifles and carbines were imported into the US, and you see many of them that were converted to sporter rifles of various qualities.

Original caliber was the Mauser/Argentine 7.65mm.
These rifles are not suitable for use with more powerful cartridges.
norma 7.65 arg. ammo is loaded to 52,000 psi.
7.65 Mauser maximum pressure was 42,660 psia.
although critical failure usually happen at 70,000 + Despite such early development, performance of the 7.65 in modern guns is practically indistinguishable from 308 Winchester ballistics. Interestingly, to the untrained eye, these two cases look very similar; however, similar is not identical and these rounds are not interchangeable. Obviously, with top loads, the 7.65 Argentine is useful for the same range of hunting applications, as is the 308 Winchester; however, due to continued use of potentially weaker rifles in this chambering, data listed here is significantly reduced and ballistics are therefore also limited (think .303British when reloading)
I would not push a 1891 past commercial loadings, but they are perfectly fine for those.
Value depends entirely on the condition of the rifle    The firing pin of this rifle is very slender and fragile looking when compared to a Mauser 98's I'd suggest not dry firing this particular model much, My 1891's when I'd gotten it had a busted bolt stop and firing pin (both dont interchange with M98's)

Offline Rex in OTZ

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Re: 1891 Mauser ??????
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2012, 12:14:49 PM »
You want to know how old it is?
 
Remember the Titantic sank in 1912, this helps put age and materials in perspective.
We were Mfg one lug Kraig rifles, our first mauser style rifles were the 1903 Springfields
the early heat treatment problems reard its head in one the plants.
http://m1903.com/03rcvrfail/     so thinking your goint to crank a .22-250 barrel on one of these rifles is not a wise move, stick to prescribed ammo spec's it will be a enjoyable rifle to shoot, its old, looks cool and isant that hot/fast, they are pretty accurate and wonderfull old Pre WWI German workmanship.

http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=111906
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=111547
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=109815

 

Offline 1911crazy

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Re: 1891 Mauser ??????
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2012, 08:53:47 AM »
One option is to install a chamber adapter to make it shoot 7,62x39 russian.  I have one barreled action/bubba 1891 thats my next project.  These 1891's seem to be comming out of the wood work lately at affordable prices too.  But the prices do vary too from affordable to really expensive we just need to shop around.

Offline windywales

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Re: 1891 Mauser ??????
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2012, 08:27:46 AM »
Look closely at this magnificent rifle and you'll be much reassured; the quality of the workmanship and the sheer mass of the action, the bolt, the lugs, etc. make this, if not the equal of the great '98 Mauser, at least one of the strongest of the Mauser designs.  The 7.65x53 round will easily equal the .308 in any of its factory loadings, and is capable of handling any situation that wonderful round can master.  It's even better in the 1909 model, of course, which many feel was the epitome of the military Mausers, both in design and in fit and finish, but those latter qualities also shine in the '91.  There are even numerous .311 or .312 pistol bullets to try for plinker loads or varmints.  Amazingly, the very first smokeless round, the 8x50R Lebel, generates virtually identical muzzle energy; hence ballistic performance--for once, the French led the way, Germany followed.
And why "soup it up"?  Are you hunting T-rex?  Last I heard, deer, elk, and black bear are easily penetrable by much less formidable loadings than any of these old military standards.  And there's a secret to overcoming the difference in effective range between this and the latest schnortenboomer: it's called "hunting".
mind yer topknot!
windy

Offline Larry Gibson

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Re: 1891 Mauser ??????
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2012, 11:58:07 AM »
The M91 Argentine Mausers are very nicely made and every bit as "strong" as the M93-M96 Mausers.  They were made pretty much during the same time, using the same steel and the same heat treat methods.  The CIP (European equivelent to SAAMI) lists the PMAX at 3900bar (56,565 psi/piezo-transducer) for both the Belgian and the Argentine 7.65.  I have several M91s and have pressure tested numerous factory and milsurp loads in one using the M43 Oehler PBL. 
Some test results from my M91 with a 24" barrel;
FN 35 Belgian 7.65 w/154 FMJBT; 2606 fps, MAP of 53,200 psi(M43)
Hornady factory 150 gr; 2761 fps, MAP of 53,200 psi(M43)
Argentine FMMAP 47 w/185 FMJBT;  2448 fps, MAP of 54,700 psi(M43)
 
My own hunting load w/150 Hornady SP over 52.5 gr H380 in R-P cases (formed from 8x57) with WLR primers; 2797 fps, 54,000 psi(M43) and moa or better accuracy.  That puts the 7.65 Argentine well with in the realm of the .308W while maintaining safe pressures.  Excellent rifles and an excellent cartridge of which cases are easily formed from '06 or similar cases.
I also have tested Graf and Norma 7.65 Argentine ammunition but don't have that data handy but they run pretty much the same velocity for a given bullet weight and at the same psi's, all at or under the CIP PMAX.
 
Larry Gibson

Offline 1911crazy

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Re: 1891 Mauser ??????
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2012, 02:12:10 PM »
I have another 1891 carbine in 7,65x53 arg which i'm leaving it orginal.  www.aimsurplus.com offers new priv-partizan ammo for this rifle.  I have some of there soft point ammo and its boxer primed too. I figure on a nice day during deer season she(91 arg) could go out for a breath of fresh air with me.  I hate to see them in the stuffy safe all the time.
I think the german manufactured south american mausers have a better looking workmanship to them.