Author Topic: emergency generators (Read 543 times)

coyotejoe · « **on:** April 01, 2012, 07:51:33 AM »

No, I'm not a prepper exactly but living in the mountains I am dependent on electricity to run my well pump and keep food in the freezer. We had a three day power outage and it drove home the point that if had been a week or two we would have had some serious problems. So I'm shopping for a generator and have lots of questions. We don't intend to run the whole household on it, we can get by without computers and TV, are happy with candles and oil lamps, we just need to run the pump several times a day and keep the fridge and freezer cold. Pretty sure 3,000 watts would be plenty.

#1 I'm not sure whether gasoline or propane. We heat with propane and have a large tank so that seems maybe a better option than having to store lots of gasoline but would also limit the choices of generator.

#2 whether to wire into the breaker box or just run extension cords from the fridge & feezer and pump. The main freezer is in the garage so I could roll a generator right to it. The pump is 220 volt, hard wired to the breaker box and so would need an auxiliary cord to the generator.

#3 What brand of generator has a good reputation?

Sourdough · « **Reply #1 on:** April 01, 2012, 08:36:23 AM »

I too have to run a 220 well pump, I also have to run a boiler. The boiler is 110. Of the two the boiler is the most important. We can live without the well. We have kerosine lamps throughout the house for light. We also have a fireplace with an insert for heat, that can heat the house if needed, to a point.

I have three small generators, a Honda 6500, that will actually handle both well and boiler, plus one of the vehicles so we don't have to open the garage when it is down 45 to 65 below. I also have a little two stroke 1000 watt generator I got from Shucks/O'Oreilly auto store for $99.99 on sale. That little sucker will run the boiler. It's some off the wall brand, made in China, but it works good, and starts when the temps are well below zero. I take if on snowmachine trips to recharge batteries on the snowmachine and lights in the cabin. I also take it on hunting trips, it's nice to have electric lights and an electric fence to ward off bears at night. The Honda won't start if it is 10 below of colder. I have a Honda 2000 in the camper. It runs a small microwave, and lights. Plus it will recharge the batteries on the truck if someone runs them down.

As for getting power to the well and boiler, I used outlets and plugs to plug in power for the well and boiler. The well pump and boiler are side by side. First I start the generator and roll it outside. Once it is warmed up, all I have to do is unplug the well from the wall, and run a cord outside to the generator. Same for the boiler. I have a piece of 4" plastic pipe mounted in the wall leading to the outside beside the boiler. When I remove the plug from the pipe, both cords will slide through, and some foam rubber stuffed into the pipe will keep out drafts. Make sure the cords you use will handle the ampage needed for the well and anything else you use.

In a real emergency the camper generator can also be used to help power the house. The little two stroke, and the little Honda, will each power the boiler and the fan on the fireplace. Neither will power the well, but we can live without the well for extended periods. We can not live without heat.

Sourdough · « **Reply #2 on:** April 01, 2012, 08:53:05 AM »

Forgot to mention, you need to run them on a reguler basis so they are ready to go when needed. My little two stroke gets used two or three times a month all year so it is never a problem. I replace the spark plugs regulerly, but the gas never gets a chance to get stale. The little Honda in the camper gets used all summer, most weekends. I replace the plugs and change the oil every fall. I also change the oil during the summer depending on use. Now the bigger Honda just sits in the garage and never taken out and used. So I drain and replace the gas, and oil every six months. On the first day of each month I start it and run it up till it is warmed up. I plug in my compressor, or something that will challenge it for power. If everything is OK I shut it down and roll it back under my work bench till next month. Being a Honda it has never had a problem. I've owned it for 16 years now. The little Honda I have owned for 8 years, and that little two stroke I've had for 5 years.

Matt · « **Reply #3 on:** April 01, 2012, 09:21:36 AM »

If you are going to spend the money on an LP generator you may as well spend a little more and get a system that will carry the load without working itself to death. If you think you need 3k then get 6k-8k that way the unit will not have to work as hard and you will be able to have extra just in case you need to add a space heater or something like that to the mix.

May as well get a system with an automatic transfer switch that way you dont have to flip breakers or any of that.
Brands... Nothing from Sears or made in China. I have 4 5500w craftsman units and every one of them have a broken piston rod. They are not meant for continuous use and will break. I like Generac
Here is a nice unit from Lowes:
Centurion by Generac Power Systems 8000 Watts (LP)/7000 Watts (NG) Standby Generator with Automatic Transfer Switch.
Item #: 223509
Model #: 5891
External main circuit breaker with system status and maintenance interval LED indicators
Easiest Installation - Includes 30 ft., 5 ft. & 2 ft. pre-wired conduits, outdoor connection box, flexible fuel line pigtail and composite mounting...
Sturdy, galvanneal steel enclosure with RhinoCoat finish for superior weather protection, modeled to withstand 150 mph winds
Lowes price: $2,249.00

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #4 on:** April 01, 2012, 09:30:34 AM »

I don't recall the brand of the one I got several years ago (I'm at work right now or I would run out and check) but I got it at Menards, essentially a "no name brand".

One thing I will advise, get more wattage than you think you will need! I didn't , and I've regretted it!

Also, if you are good with electrical stuff, hook up a "back feed" to your 220 circut on your circut breaker. This will allow you to run your 220 stuff and your 110 stuff as needed. This means shutting off the main when you hook up the genny, but it's not a big hassle. You do have to remember to shut down the genny and reset your main breaker though when power is restored, if you don't things will get hairy!

I've got a back feed circut to my 220 with a plug in type hook-up to it on the outside of the house. This way I can run my central air if needed, and by shutting off that circut breaker I can run the 110 stuff intermitantly. It's not the best solution, but it keeps us cool in the summer or warm in the winter, along with preventing the freezer from getting too hot. Again, it's a matter of shutting off/turning on circuts as needed. If I had bought a big enough genny in the first place I wouldn't even need to do that.......but ya gotta remember to shut that main breaker down when you hook up that genny......otherwise it will try to power the whole grid!.......RUNAWAY GENNY!!!!!!!

Sourdough · « **Reply #5 on:** April 01, 2012, 07:25:39 PM »

I know a lot of people that get those automatic relays, then forget about them. A couple of years later when the power goes out, something goes haywire with the relay and it does not work. I have installed systems where the occupant needed to switch breakers, sturn off the main breaker, then turn on the circuit for the generator. Every thing works fine if the man is home at the time and makes the switching in the right order. But sometimes he makes a mistake, or he is not home and the wife or kid makes the switching and things go haywire. Gets costly when generators get fried, because someone forgot to turn off the generator circuit before switching the main power back on.

Yes I could install that type of switch gear, and spend a lot of money. But my feeling is "Keep It Simple". My Honda 6500 is far more than I need for my well and boiler. As for quality, for my application the Honda has all the reliability I need. In the event we should have a major disastor up here and lose power for a week or so, I am confident my Honda will handle the continous run time with no problem with it's light load. When the power comes back on I simply go and unplug the well and boiler and plug them back into the wall. Then turn off the generator. No way circuits can get crossed and something burned up. If I'm not home when the power goes out, no way someone else can screw it up.

If it's summer when we lose power, so what we don't need any power during the summer we can live without it. We don't need air conditioning, and I have a well with a pitcher pump for drinking water. Since it does not get dark we don't need lights. But if it's winter we need heat. The well is nice but not neccessary.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #6 on:** April 02, 2012, 12:16:46 AM »

Sometime power is out a week or longer, depending on how large a storm, how many overall are out of power, and how many customers are on a specific grid...fewer means they get to you last. At one house, there were two of us on a grid. Twice, it took FL Power over a week to restore electricity while everyone else around us was back on in three days. Third time, I got the bright idea to "seemingly" attempt to reset the breaker myself. I know it doesn't work that way. There is an internal fuseable link that must be installed by high reach lift truck and qualified personnel. But, my neighbor called the power company to say the idiot next door was on a ladder by their pole attempting to reset the transformer and they came IMMEDIATELY and fixed it on Day Three...hehe. I didn't have to do anything, just go through the motions.

Security is something to also be considered unless you are isolated (I suppose). Here, in FL, the power is interrupted often, by hurricanes and Tropical Storms. Folks purchase generators immediately prior to the storm, hook it up where the exhaust doesn't overcome them, usually on the side of the house where the meter is installed, switch off the main, switch on the genny, crank it up, go to sleep, and upon awakening find that some low life has ripped them off and stolen their hyper-inflated (storm price gouging) $5,000.00 to $7,500.00 new "toy". Happens all the time. Staying awake all night to shoot the scavenging low lifes isn't really on John Q Homeowner's list of power outage responsibilities. Maybe a stout chain and hefty lock are necessary requirements too. Perhaps others will have some ideas on how they get by.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #7 on:** April 02, 2012, 04:49:05 AM »

Thanks for the info guys! I'm leaning more toward Sourdough's suggestion to "keep it simple", which also makes it considerably less expensive. All I would need in terms of electrical wiring would be a junction box and 220V receptacle so that I could unplug the pump from the house wiring and plug it into the generator and a couple of good extension cords for the fridge and freezer. I'm also leaning more toward propane because I don't like hauling and storing gas cans and having to remember to change out the stored gas every three months. I have three 5 gal. bottles and could even plumb into the home tank. I'm thinking the Generac LP3250 would serve my needs.

Old Syko · « **Reply #8 on:** April 02, 2012, 05:18:43 AM »

Before you buy check the draw of your well pump. Could be that 3250 might not run your pump. In case you don't know, 120 volts x 10 amps equals 1200 watts so 220 volts at 15 amps equals 3300 watts just to run and this does not take into consideration the surge required at startup. Well pumps are notorious for high start surge requirements. 5kw or more is a good all round supply for minimal use.

I run a 7500 and as long as you don't mind playing Green Acres a bit you can run most anything in the house. Also keep in mind, the higher output the more fuel you will use and especially using LP since it is much more inefficient to begin with than gas or diesel.

jhm · « **Reply #9 on:** April 02, 2012, 05:40:18 AM »

I have a genrac 3500 with 5000 surge I keep in the garage for just in case things it WONT handle 220 so check that one out to make sure, as already been said get more than you need so as to not wish you had more when needed, I also have a 5500 in the RV that has been brought into service during a spring storm left us with-out for several days, cant flush if the well dont work, and after a few days of canned Dinty-more you will need to flush. Jim

coyotejoe · « **Reply #10 on:** April 02, 2012, 06:36:56 AM »

Good advise, thank you. I can't find any info on our pump, it was in the well when we bought the house. I'll check with a well driller friend to see what he suggests. The Generac LP3250 does have a 220V twist lock outlet rated at 13.5 amp with 15.6 amp surge. That is the only propane model Generac makes.

Old Syko · « **Reply #11 on:** April 02, 2012, 07:08:48 AM »

Don't count on Manufacturers printed specs on the pump. Take a minute to clip on an ammeter to check the draw otherwise you're flying blind. Better to find these things out before you need to. Most electrical appliances have specs that are reasonably accurate, but a well pump is a different story. You also want to check it at the power supply for an accurate read.

P.A. Myers · « **Reply #12 on:** April 02, 2012, 07:16:09 AM »

Even using Sta-bil [it works] I don't like handling gasoline. The capacity of your generator is best if it is double your projected load. Having water on site is a great advantage. Your local electrican can rig a switch box that will do all the connections with one throw.

coss · « **Reply #13 on:** April 02, 2012, 03:20:15 PM »

I second the motion to have an electrician install a second breaker panel that will isolate your generator-driven circuits from the public grid.

Plugging an extension cord into any part of your primary breaker panel will backfeed the public grid with your generator's juice, and if there is a lineman working on a seemingly-dead line when you fire up your generator, you can electrocute a lineman. Although most power companies mandate that linemen treat every line as if it were "live", during a long blackout, at night, in the rain, after many hours, accidents can happen, and I wouldn't want the guilt eating at me.

The only safe way to use extension cords with a generator is to plug the appliances and lights directly into the generator, after they have been disconnected from the house circuit. If your furnace, well, etc, are hard-wired, you may have to swap out the wires for plug-and-socket combinations so you can unplug from the grid and plug into the generator

Before he retired, my father was in charge of safety programs for a power company. He lost some guys. After the funerals, he would stay up all night, pacing back and forth.

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #14 on:** April 02, 2012, 03:31:47 PM »

Quote from: coss on April 02, 2012, 03:20:15 PM

I second the motion to have an electrician install a second breaker panel that will isolate your generator-driven circuits from the public grid.

Plugging an extension cord into any part of your primary breaker panel will backfeed the public grid with your generator's juice, and if there is a lineman working on a seemingly-dead line when you fire up your generator, you can electrocute a lineman. Although most power companies mandate that linemen treat every line as if it were "live", during a long blackout, at night, in the rain, after many hours, accidents can happen, and I wouldn't want the guilt eating at me.

The only safe way to use extension cords with a generator is to plug the appliances and lights directly into the generator, after they have been disconnected from the house circuit. If your furnace, well, etc, are hard-wired, you may have to swap out the wires for plug-and-socket combinations so you can unplug from the grid and plug into the generator

Before he retired, my father was in charge of safety programs for a power company. He lost some guys. After the funerals, he would stay up all night, pacing back and forth.

See...this is why I said to turn off your main breaker. Aside from possibly frying some poor lineman, when it's on you are trying to power the entire grid, which your little genny cannot do, it will try but it can't keep up............RUNAWAY GENNY!!!!!!!!!

jackddavis · « **Reply #15 on:** April 02, 2012, 03:38:43 PM »

I have a similar problem....Well, fridge and freezer. We have a 3000 KW and it is just barely big enough to run the well pump. Our pump is 1-1/2 horse and draws 10A@240V. Our pump is hard wired and that makes it a bit tricky to connect. It also has an 120V electric valve in the filter system that needs to operate at the same time. It's do-able and we can and do, do it. We had trouble with gasoline so I converted to propane. Propane never goes bad.....gas does. Propane is in a sealed tank and gasoline can draw moisture, especially if not kept full. That water goes to the bottom of the tank and that's the first drink your engine gets.

PowPow · « **Reply #16 on:** April 02, 2012, 04:06:07 PM »

If you don't know the amperage or horsepower of the pump motor, look at the breaker serving it.
Breakers are sized for 225% of motor full load amperage. Work the math backwards; breaker size divided by 2.25 should give you the full load amps of the motor. The motor should be a little larger than the pumping load, so you will have some spare in that calc.

If your generator is connected to the grid, the internal breakers should trip the moment you try to connect megawatts to your kilowatt generator. You won't light up the town and you won't have some kind of portable generator China Syndrome. Its a safety hazard for the lineman. Short of a catastrophy, they will figure out it was you and they will cut the service line to your house and put you on the bottom of the re-connect list.

Buy the double throw safety switch. Two ins / one out. one in is main service. the other in is a cord to the generator. the out is your breaker box.

I have a gasoline generator for our "once-every-year or two" outages. I buy gas in view of inclement weather. When it passes, I dump it in the car.

My generator is the standard 5 kW with5 gal tank for $500 from Home Depot. When I am finished using it, I turn off the fuel valve and let it run out for gas; doing that is how it has crunk up on the first pull every time for the last 15 years.

Sourdough · « **Reply #17 on:** April 02, 2012, 08:09:06 PM »

That is one of the reason's I use plugs and totally disconnect from the house power, and plug directly into my Generator. No way I can back feed into the power grid. Plus when the power comes back on it is full of spikes for the first hour or so. The power company denies that they have spikes, but turn your lights on and watch the light bulbs blow. I give it time to settle down before plugging back into the house power.

I only change the gasoline for the biger unit that is strictly for the house. As for the smaller ones, I never have to change the gas, since they are in use all summer, and often in the winter.

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #18 on:** April 06, 2012, 05:57:12 AM »

Ok, I finally went out to the shed ...time to check and do maintenance on all my small engines for the year.

My genny is a 6000 watt General Power Product brand. Four 110 outlets and one 220 outlet, 7 gal tank. I've had it for four years now and it always starts on the third pull. (have to open the fuel valve and get gas down to the carb) Filled it up last spring and put Stabile in it. Now I am going to drain it, save the fuel for mowers and weed wackers, and refill with fresh fuel and Stabile. Then I start it, shut the fuel valve off, let it run until it stops, and put it away until needed, or next spring.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #19 on:** April 06, 2012, 06:50:32 AM »

Thanks for all the info guys. My well pump is on two 20 amp breakers so by the math an 18 amp peak load so most 5KW generators should be fine. I'm still convinced propane is the way to go since we heat and cook with propane and have three 20 pound bottles for camping and backyard grilling and where I would place the generator I could easily plumb into the home tank. There are not so many options in propane genertors however. Generac has a good reputation but their only propane model is the 3250 and it seems questionable if it could handle the pump with a 15 amp surge. So I'm now looking at the "Sportsman" brand 7kw. Home Depot has it for $750 or with electric start for $50 more, say $100 more after buying a battery for it. Online reviews give it 4.2 out of 5 stars from 78 reviewers. The same brand in 4kw lists 29 amps and is half the money but has no 220v outlet, just two 110's.