Author Topic: .177 cannon question (Read 2544 times)

alemonkey · « **on:** January 14, 2012, 03:48:56 PM »

Hi everyone,

I recently bought a benchtop lathe and was working on another project where I had to bore through a long cylinder. About halfway through, I looked at it and realized I was basically building a small cannon barrel.......

I've always wanted a small cannon or mortar, but the idea of building one never occurred to me until just the other day. Eventually I would like to build a golf ball mortar, but I figured I would start with something smaller so I'm planning on a .177 caliber BB cannon. I've read a lot on here and other sites and I think I have a pretty good handle on the machine work needed and things like chamber wall thickness, etc. I do have one question though - is a separate powder chamber really needed on a .177 caliber? I'm thinking that the bore is so small already that if I have a separate chamber it will be small enough that the powder granules will hang up and not settle down into the chamber. Am I ok with just a straight bore and no chamber?

irishman · « **Reply #1 on:** January 14, 2012, 04:39:50 PM »

Alemonkey,

Welcome to the board! No powder chamber necessary. We have made many over the years. Take a look at our website and we will try to answer any questions you have. If you would like to use brass, as we do, I will be happy to send a couple of end pieces.

Where did you hear of GBO?

Michael

keith44 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 14, 2012, 04:51:47 PM »

I will vouch for the Brooks products. I have a few of their small firecracker cannons, and a .177 cal "pellet mortar" they all are a blast to shoot!

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #3 on:** January 15, 2012, 03:38:03 AM »

alemonkey --

WELCOME to the board!

"you could put your eye out with that thing"

No powder chamber necessary. You will get good velocity too! There are some pictures of Lance's oak-banded-with-iron BB (.177) mortar firing. A FEW grains of powder and it would penetrate aluminum cans and cardboard.

alemonkey · « **Reply #4 on:** January 15, 2012, 04:49:59 AM »

Thanks everyone, it's still the planning stage but your input helps.

Quote from: irishman on January 14, 2012, 04:39:50 PM

Alemonkey,

Welcome to the board! No powder chamber necessary. We have made many over the years. Take a look at our website and we will try to answer any questions you have. If you would like to use brass, as we do, I will be happy to send a couple of end pieces.

Where did you hear of GBO?

Michael

I was actually thinking of using steel, since I have some scrap bar stock lying around. Do your end pieces thread on?

I ran across this site while doing some google searches on cannon making. There's a lot of good information here.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #5 on:** January 15, 2012, 04:58:33 AM »

If you have solid bar stock just drill a blind hole for your bore.

alemonkey · « **Reply #6 on:** January 15, 2012, 10:51:35 AM »

Quote from: Artilleryman on January 15, 2012, 04:58:33 AM

If you have solid bar stock just drill a blind hole for your bore.

Thanks, that's what I was thinking.

What size of touch hole would I need? I was thinking of maybe using firecracker fuses or something similar.

irishman · « **Reply #7 on:** January 15, 2012, 11:33:52 AM »

I was actually thinking of using steel, since I have some scrap bar stock lying around. Do your end pieces thread on?

I ran across this site while doing some google searches on cannon making. There's a lot of good information here.

alemonkey,

Ours load from the muzzel. The end pieces that I would send would be 3/4 dia X 3.5 to 4.5' long.
I recommend using 1/16" fuse hole with 1.4mm visco fuse (.055"). Using a larger hole "vents" more pressure out of the fuse hole instead of out the barrel.

Michael

subdjoe · « **Reply #8 on:** January 15, 2012, 12:40:30 PM »

Quote from: Cat Whisperer on January 15, 2012, 03:38:03 AM

alemonkey --

WELCOME to the board!

"you could put your eye out with that thing"

No powder chamber necessary. You will get good velocity too! There are some pictures of Lance's oak-banded-with-iron BB (.177) mortar firing. A FEW grains of powder and it would penetrate aluminum cans and cardboard.

The smallest black powder gun I have ever used was a .22 percussion pepperbox. The suggested charge was 3 to 4 gr. of FFFFg. Do you mean 1 or 2 grains weigh? Or a few granuals of powder, say a three fingered pinch?

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #9 on:** January 15, 2012, 01:16:46 PM »

A right-much small amount. Volume about the size of the .177 BB itself.

Rayfan87 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 15, 2012, 01:36:35 PM »

I've thought about making a bb sized handgonne, for something that small, would you stay with 3f or go to 4f? I know its only ment for priming but with an application like that it seems like it might be a better option.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #11 on:** January 15, 2012, 02:03:53 PM »

I have one that I've started - still sitting on top of my lathe. Either would work (3F or 4F) - barrel lengh of 1-1/2 to 2".

subdjoe · « **Reply #12 on:** January 15, 2012, 03:42:46 PM »

Quote from: Cat Whisperer on January 15, 2012, 01:16:46 PM

A right-much small amount. Volume about the size of the .177 BB itself.

Yeah, about a three fingered pinch, which is about 1/8 of a teaspoon.

MikeR C · « **Reply #13 on:** January 20, 2012, 09:57:40 AM »

I have a .177 cannon barrel mounted on a cast pot metal toy carriage, wheels don't turn. For a load I placed a bb on a clean sheet of paper, poured 4f onto it till it just barely covered it then made a powder measure to hold that much out of a .22 empty case. I used a 1/16" drill for the touch hole and 1mm fuse. As you can see alot of fire comes out of the touch hole...

Thanx
MikeR C

Rayfan87 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 20, 2012, 11:36:29 AM »

I wonder if you could use a flintlock pan charger to measure the powder.

keith44 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 20, 2012, 11:46:12 AM »

Quote from: Rayfan87 on January 20, 2012, 11:36:29 AM

I wonder if you could use a flintlock pan charger to measure the powder.

Yes I do. I use 3F and about 3 charges from the pan charger gives me about 6 grains. Plenty for my .177 Pellet mortar.

Double D · « **Reply #16 on:** January 21, 2012, 04:21:39 AM »

Quote from: Rayfan87 on January 20, 2012, 11:36:29 AM

I wonder if you could use a flintlock pan charger to measure the powder.

Excellent tool to have, I use it for charging the vents on my small cannons.

Track of the Wolf has several different kinds

benbmw · « **Reply #17 on:** May 05, 2012, 07:18:08 AM »

Hi, i recently built a .177 cannon but when it fires most of the charge comes out of the fuse hole. my fuse hole is 1/16 so i don't think the size is the problem but the length of the barrel might be because its only 1 1/4 inch overall and the internal barrel length is 3/4 inch. Do you guys use wadding? I tried with and without wadding but it still only 'Poofs' and the bb goes about 2 yards. i have also tried both pyrodex and powder i got from bottle rockets which is almost equivalent to flash powder. Any help/suggestions?
Thanks, Ben

Double D · « **Reply #18 on:** May 05, 2012, 09:42:43 AM »

Use real black powder. FFF or even FFFFG.

Pyrodex is unsuitable for cannons.

Bottle rocket powder is intended for bottle rockets not cannons.

What is the diameter of your bore? Bore should not be more the .181 for a .177 diameter projectile.

benbmw · « **Reply #19 on:** May 05, 2012, 02:44:51 PM »

Ya i was figuring it was the powder but flash powder should work ill be careful to use very low amounts)
and the bore is exactly .177 i ordered a .177 drill bit of McMaster. So do you not think the length of the barrel matters all that much? and i used rocket powder because it burns almost as fast as flash powder.

Double D · « **Reply #20 on:** May 05, 2012, 04:04:14 PM »

Using the wrong powder is never safe.

benbmw · « **Reply #21 on:** May 05, 2012, 05:10:00 PM »

Is it necessarily the 'wrong' powder? Who said that black powder is the 'right' powder? And it shouldn't be unsafe to use a very small amount. Here:http://themanscave.com/very-cool-things-to-do/how-to-make-a-mini-cannon-that-shoots-bbs/
in the comments someone asks him what powder he uses and he says flash powder.
But my main question is, is it the powder im using or the length of the barrel?
Thanks, Ben

keith44 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 05, 2012, 05:36:07 PM »

it is the powder that is the problem use ONLY real black powder in replica cannons. Flash powder could cause rapid disassembly of the barrel (over time) black powder substitutes do not give enough lift for the properly sized projectile.

benbmw · « **Reply #23 on:** May 05, 2012, 06:47:30 PM »

Oh ok thanks. what about triple seven iv never used it. is it faster burning or what?

keith44 · « **Reply #24 on:** May 05, 2012, 09:14:53 PM »

Quote from: benbmw on May 05, 2012, 06:47:30 PM

Oh ok thanks. what about triple seven iv never used it. is it faster burning or what?

Quote from: keith44 on May 05, 2012, 05:36:07 PM

it is the powder that is the problem use ONLY real black powder in replica cannons. Flash powder could cause rapid disassembly of the barrel (over time) black powder substitutes do not give enough lift for the properly sized projectile.

Victor3 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 05, 2012, 10:49:15 PM »

Quote from: benbmw on May 05, 2012, 02:44:51 PM

Ya i was figuring it was the powder but flash powder should work ill be careful to use very low amounts)
and the bore is exactly .177 i ordered a .177 drill bit of McMaster. So do you not think the length of the barrel matters all that much? and i used rocket powder because it burns almost as fast as flash powder.

Only a tiny charge of flash powder is used at the top end of bottle rockets, for the 'pop' at the end of their flight. The rest is a fairly slow-burning propellant to get it up in the air.

benbmw · « **Reply #26 on:** May 06, 2012, 04:37:46 AM »

Quote from: Victor3 on May 05, 2012, 10:49:15 PM

Quote from: benbmw on May 05, 2012, 02:44:51 PM
Ya i was figuring it was the powder but flash powder should work ill be careful to use very low amounts)
and the bore is exactly .177 i ordered a .177 drill bit of McMaster. So do you not think the length of the barrel matters all that much? and i used rocket powder because it burns almost as fast as flash powder.

Only a tiny charge of flash powder is used at the top end of bottle rockets, for the 'pop' at the end of their flight. The rest is a fairly slow-burning propellant to get it up in the air.

I guess not in all bottle rockets because i took apart both a rocket engine and a bottle rocket and the powder that i scraped out of them was very fast burning (at least in powder form). But ill try real black powder, if i can find some. where do you get your black powder?
EDIT: just google 'bottle rocket powder' and youll see what im talking about.

flagman1776 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 06, 2012, 05:05:14 AM »

fffg black powder (what I'd use for a small bore) is common sporting granulation.

keith44 · « **Reply #28 on:** May 06, 2012, 07:59:30 AM »

I buy from either

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/vendor/vendorId/39

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/

http://www.powderinc.com/

depending on who has the best price on what I want

Microboomer · « **Reply #29 on:** May 07, 2012, 12:59:42 AM »

You can get black powder at the big sporting goods chains - I get mine at Bass Pro Shops.
NO ONE has black powder sitting out anymore - you have to ask for it. In my area none of the local gun shops, big or small, carry it due to paperwork hassles that have been implemented post 9/11.

I use 3FG in my .177 guns. The trick for getting a nice bang out of a tiny cannon is to have a relatively long barrel. The mortar in my avatar makes a disappointingly quite pfft sound. Last year I made a hand gonne with a .178 x 2.5" bore, and it makes a very satisfying bang pushing a BB with 2 grains of powder.
andy