Vagaries of brass

[1armoured]

Over the years, I've noticed the differences in a lot of brass.
In the interests of accuracy, I've never mixed different headstamps,
and also tried to end up with good, quality stuff.


Accumulating brass for the .308, I noticed with Federal,
there were two distinct size of headstamp lettering in the brass that I was using.
I used to segregate the large from the small, just to keep like with like.


I never reloaded any of the surplus stuff I used for practice.
My two loads were differentiated with using Lapua and Federal.
I found the Federal pretty soft, and primer pockets expanding.
The Lapua are excellent uniform quality.


Also, in .22Hornet, just acquired a 100 of RWS cases,
again coming with a good reputation, and heaviest of all the cartridges that I've been using,
i.e. RP, WW, Prvi, S&B, Frontier


In the .222, after using mostly RP and PMC, I've purchased a 100 Lapua Match cases.
They weigh more than the other brass that I've had to compare with,
and I noticed when FL sizing the new cases, how tight the expander ball was on extraction,
with their thicker neck. (by a thou, each side, I think.)
I've also accumulated a 100 Sako cases of various usage and age.
They have a good reputation as well, and have less powder capacity than say RP and PMC.
I've also noticed two size lettering in the headstamp,
and strangely of all, I have a half dozen with what appear to be stamped flash holes, with red coloring around the pocket, much as you would see a glued/crimped military round
rather than the supposedly drilled holes that I have been lead to believe is the norm with Sako, Norma and RWS.
Quality European brass.
It's possible, I suppose, that at some time, manufacture has been contracted out elsewhere ?

Have a look at the pic below, and you will see the difference in lettering and flash hole,
and the bit of red around the pocket.

(One pic with light, the other without. Not sure which one shows up best !)
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cheers,
SS

[cybin]

I have noticed that with pistol brass Federal brass is lighter--and when you use primers other than federal (say CCI) from time to time you have problems seating the primers--its like the primer pocket is too small. I never run  into this problem with R-P , PMC, or Winchester brass in pistol calibers.
 
cybin

[Larry L]

A lot of folks will argue that the high dollar brass is the best. Maybe so, maybe not. Handloader Mag did a comparison using a Cooper 223 rifle for comparison. They used the Lapua, and most of the popular brands including Remington. They also used different brands of primers to see if they made any actual difference. In all cases, the Remington brass and primers turned in the best groups. True science? Probably not but it was something to consider. I use and like Remington brass but not in 223. I've had lots of issues with it being far too soft in 223 only. I prefer it to others in pistol cases but I also have tons of other brands that apparently doesn't effect accuracy, at least my pistols don't know they're not suppose to shoot it fabulous. I shoot a lot of military brass most of which is match. I use the hardball brass for reduced loads or one way ammo that the brass isn't coming home. I've had no accuracy issues with it.
I ran across a guy the other day that had 1000 rounds of military match 5.56 brass once fired. I actually missed it when he said "match" as I've never heard of 5.56 military match. I bought all the brass he had anyway as I needed it for a 6x 45 AR. This is marked WWC11 and came in plain boxes marked military match ammo 62gr. It's some of the best brass I've seen in this cartridge. Drilled flash holes that are exactly .081 and no burrs inside. All are exactly the same length and neck runout is just not there. If I didn't know better I'd say this was hand prepared match ammo. Picked up the 1000 rounds for $13.00. I'm happy with it.
Like most, I segregate my brass according to headstamp or if military, maker and date. I also keep brass in separate ammo boxes and they stay separate with the number of loadings on the box. Some, like 30 carbine, will go a lot of times before it becomes one way brass. The large magnum brass will go as many as 5 times and then it's gone. Pistol brass pretty much self disappears so I'm always adding new but keep it separate from the older stuff.

[1armoured]

I'd hesitate to claim that a particular brand is best,
But what you want is uniformity,
and particularly with the Hornet, uniform neck tension, with those thin necks.


I have found that there is less work to do with the Lapua, Sako and RWS,
Particularly with primer pockets and flash holes,


I've had to deburr quite a few others.


I've acquired 20x new FC nickel plated in .222, and loaded up with the 52gr Sierra HPBT Match,
and see how they go soon.
They look to be pretty OK, but I've heard that they're hard on dies, so we'll see.


cheers,
SS

[ratdog]

the only problem i have had is with pmc 223 brass tight primer holes need to be swaged or reamed i also found some blazer 45 acp that looked like they had small pistol primers.i buy range brass from my friend at the range he has a lot he sales it but it don't last long.i have been trading off a lot off brass in calibers in won't need any more traded it all off in two days a lot it i have had over 25 years.

[1armoured]

I forgot to add,


The RWS 22Hornet brass, for some reason,
Has a smaller dia drilled flash hole.
I've left it alone. Might perform better with the small pistol primers,....then again, might not.
I guess the results will show, although the RP's are loaded with 13grs Lil'Gun, but the RWS only make 12gr, so any differences in grouping might be in the powder.


I've Just run a flash hole uniformer through 50x RP Hornet cases,
and a few with little burrs inside.
The RP Hornet rim can vary slightly by a thou, which makes them a bit sticky in my Anschutz Hornet.
I segregate the thicker rims out and keep them for the Savage Model 40.
Got 50/50 in the latest batch I bought.

Still testing crimped v uncrimped, in the Hornet, but not enough fired down range at this time.


cheers,
SS

[Larry L]

FWIW, I use nothing but CCI500 pistol primers in the Hornet, 218B, and 30 Carbine. Improves accuracy by a lot.

[1armoured]

I just generally use the Federal Premium primers because they're more available where I shop"


Small pistol in the Hornet.


Never seen a Remington primer,
Just Win and CCI , both seem OK, but never tested to compare .
Never had a 'Fail to fire' with anything.


cheers,
SS

[Buckskin]

I just broke down and bought a couple boxes of Nosler brass for 300 RUM and 7mm-08, and I am completely sold on this stuff. It is by far the best brass that I have worked with to date. I have tried Remington, Winchester and Hornady in multiple calibers as well as military LC stuff for .223. All has worked well for me in the past and I actually really like the LC... I was particularily interested in that Nosler stuff is completely prepped and weight sorted.  All I had to do was prime, powder and seat!! Man that's nice!!! I grew real tired of having to fix up new "bag" brass before loading, so the extra $10 - $20 per 50 was well worth it. I haven't shot the 7mm-08 yet, but the RUM brass put out very concentric ammo and shot by far my best new ammo groups with the gun.  I am looking forward to see how it does the second round + with it fire formed... I think I am done buying anything else but Nosler for brass.

[D Fischer]

I'm not sure what makes people say one companys brass, cases, are better than another. If your a match shooter, it might be true but asking this question here leads me to believe you are not a match shooter. For a whole lot of years I ignored cleaning the flash hole inside the case. Now that I have tried it, I can measure no difference in what it was doing before reaming. I do think all case's should have the same head stamp. Different case's have different inside measurements. I have always found Win cases lighter than other's I've used. That tell's me there is a bit more case capacity but weather or not that will effect anything other than pressure, I haven't seen it. Of course changing pressure as they do cannot be good for groups.

All the little things that tend to make groups tighter is of no use if the gun is not well tuned! And if the gun it well tunned it's all for nothing if the user doesn't have the ability to use it. Get that super tuned gun and finely adjusted ammunition off the bench and your quarter minute gun become's quite something else and it probably won't be anywhere near a quarter minute shooter any more.

Having a rifle properly bedded will make much more difference than probably all the super tune things can accomplish. The same can be said of shooting technique. If you don't have quarter minute technique, a quarter minute rifle won't give it to you. I also don't think you'll ever get a really accurate shooter simply by the case's you use nor by reaming a flash hole. All the things we talk about having to do with accuracy are usually wasted on most of use other than keeping the case head stamps the same and shooting technique.

My favorite cases are what ever the supply house has that is reasonably priced, Usually Winchester. The needs of a good hunting load and a competeable accuracy load are far different.

[1armoured]

I think you're being a bit unfair.

What you're basically saying is that there are many variables that make up good, accurate, consistent results.


I think most people realize that, and will agree.


Brass is just one of them, and can be treated as a complex item, or on the other hand, to some, irrelevant.


Better to discuss individual items from the list of variables, rather than try and address them all, at one time.


Every shooter will have their own idea of what is acceptable to them, and what components do it for them as 'best'.


It's like saying 'shoots quarter minute groups all day'


I see that bandied about a lot, and just smile. 


cheers,
SS

 

[Buckskin]

I'm not sure what makes people say one companys brass, cases, are better than another. If your a match shooter, it might be true but asking this question here leads me to believe you are not a match shooter. For a whole lot of years I ignored cleaning the flash hole inside the case. Now that I have tried it, I can measure no difference in what it was doing before reaming. I do think all case's should have the same head stamp. Different case's have different inside measurements. I have always found Win cases lighter than other's I've used. That tell's me there is a bit more case capacity but weather or not that will effect anything other than pressure, I haven't seen it. Of course changing pressure as they do cannot be good for groups.

All the little things that tend to make groups tighter is of no use if the gun is not well tuned! And if the gun it well tunned it's all for nothing if the user doesn't have the ability to use it. Get that super tuned gun and finely adjusted ammunition off the bench and your quarter minute gun become's quite something else and it probably won't be anywhere near a quarter minute shooter any more.

Having a rifle properly bedded will make much more difference than probably all the super tune things can accomplish. The same can be said of shooting technique. If you don't have quarter minute technique, a quarter minute rifle won't give it to you. I also don't think you'll ever get a really accurate shooter simply by the case's you use nor by reaming a flash hole. All the things we talk about having to do with accuracy are usually wasted on most of use other than keeping the case head stamps the same and shooting technique.

My favorite cases are what ever the supply house has that is reasonably priced, Usually Winchester. The needs of a good hunting load and a competeable accuracy load are far different.

 
You need a gun that is tuned correctly to shoot tighter groups??? Well darn, I should have thought of that!!! I think there is a book you could right in that advice somewhere....  Aside from the sarcasm here, you certainly don't have to be a match shooter to observe differences and have preferences in brass.  Consistency is the most important thing in making ammo, everything should be the same from round to round and it all starts with the brass. To get low SD's on the chrono you need consistant brass, period.  Yes you can make consistant brass from Winchester and Remington's of the world, I've done it for a long time and will continue to do it. But when you open a bag of new brass from these companies and start sorting, it's usually pretty sad.  Always dented mouths, different OAL, massive weight differences, crooked necks - and then you have to deal with prepping the brass prior to loading.  I've always had to throw a couple pieces away from every bag that were so out of tolerance that they were unusable.
 
 
I just loaded 4 different batches of test rounds for my RUM and all I did was take new Nosler brass out of the BOX ( I wish all brass companies would at least put there stuff in a box, it would eliminate a lot of issues), verify length, prime, powder and seat.  Every rounds was concentric to .0015" or less, now I've been loading for a long time and I can honestly tell you I've not been able to get that from new "bag" brass ever... For example, recently I had major issues with a bag of Remington 7mm-08.  Loaded up a ladder test and looked a concentricity and all of it was .004-.007" out of whack. And it all started from the new brass necks, they were crooked to start with. 
 
 
I can easily put an hour into prepping 20 rounds of brass, so yes, there is a difference in brass to ME.  But for a lot of shooters and guns things like concentric ammo and low SD's are not important. Load, shoot, repeat. I have a couple guns like that that are just plinkers. They are   MOA no matter what, so I've accepted that and really don't put much effort into making perfect ammo for them. They are also not scoped guns or I wouldn't own them anymore.... My shooters are different and I just can't bring myself to make anything but the most perfect ammo possible.  I just had my RUM rebuilt with a new Rock Creek barrel, action blueprinted, stock bedded, Timney trigger, extended mag box, Sako extractor, extended bolt handle, etc... I am getting MOA to 500 yards with it now and hope to be able to get to 1000 with it. , so yes - starting with great brass in the beginning is essential it to me...