Author Topic: West Point Is Divided on a War Doctrine’s Fate  (Read 578 times)

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Offline two-blocked

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West Point Is Divided on a War Doctrine’s Fate
« on: May 28, 2012, 09:05:38 AM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/28/world/at-west-point-asking-if-a-war-doctrine-was-worth-it.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2
 
WEST POINT, N.Y. — For two centuries, the United States Military Academy has produced generals for America’s wars, among them Ulysses S. Grant, Robert E. Lee, George S. Patton and David H. Petraeus. It is where President George W. Bush delivered what became known as his pre-emption speech, which sought to justify the invasion of Iraq, and where President Obama told the nation he was sending an additional 30,000 American troops to Afghanistan.        The United States gained “not much,” from two wars, said Col. Gian P. Gentile, the director of West Point’s military history program.  “Certainly not worth the effort. In my view.”                            Now at another critical moment in American military history, the faculty here on the commanding bend in the Hudson River is deep in its own existential debate. Narrowly, the argument is whether the counterinsurgency strategy used in Iraq and Afghanistan — the troop-heavy, time-intensive, expensive doctrine of trying to win over the locals by building roads, schools and government — is dead.       
Broadly, the question is what the United States gained after a decade in two wars.       
“Not much,” Col. Gian P. Gentile, the director of West Point’s military history program and the commander of a combat battalion in Baghdad in 2006, said flatly in an interview last week. “Certainly not worth the effort. In my view.”       
Colonel Gentile, long a critic of counterinsurgency, represents one side of the divide at West Point. On the other is Col. Michael J. Meese, the head of the academy’s influential social sciences department and a top adviser to General Petraeus in Baghdad and Kabul when General Petraeus commanded the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.       
“Nobody should ever underestimate the costs and the risks involved with counterinsurgency, but neither should you take that off the table,” Colonel Meese said, also in an interview last week. Counterinsurgency, he said, “was broadly successful in being able to have the Iraqis govern themselves.”       
The debate at West Point mirrors one under way in the armed forces as a whole as the United States withdraws without clear victory from Afghanistan and as the results in Iraq remain ambiguous at best. (On the ABC News program “This Week” on Sunday, the defense secretary, Leon E. Panetta, called the Taliban “resilient” after 10 and a half years of war.)       
But at West Point the debate is personal, and a decade of statistics — more than 6,000 American service members dead in Iraq and Afghanistan and more than $1 trillion spent — hit home. On Saturday, 972 cadets graduated as second lieutenants, sent off in a commencement speech by Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. with the promise that they are “the key to whatever challenges the world has in store.”       
Many of them are apprehensive about what they will find in Afghanistan — the news coming back from friends is often not good — but still hope to make it there before the war is largely over. “We’ve spent the past four years of our lives getting ready for this,” said Lt. Daniel Prial, who graduated Saturday and said he was drawn to West Point after his father survived as a firefighter in New York City on Sept. 11, 2001. “Ultimately you want to see that come to fruition.”       
At West Point the arguments are more public than those in the upper reaches of the Pentagon, in large part because the military officers on the West Point faculty pride themselves on academic freedom and challenging orthodoxy. Colonel Gentile, who is working on a book titled “Wrong Turn: America’s Deadly Embrace With Counterinsurgency,” is chief among them.       
Colonel Gentile’s argument is that the United States pursued a narrow policy goal in Afghanistan — defeating Al Qaeda there and keeping it from using the country as a base — with what he called “a maximalist operational” approach. “Strategy should employ resources of a state to achieve policy aims with the least amount of blood and treasure spent,” he said.       
Counterinsurgency could ultimately work in Afghanistan, he said, if the United States were willing to stay there for generations. “I’m talking 70, 80, 90 years,” he said.       
Colonel Gentile, who has photographs in his office of five young soldiers in his battalion killed in the 2006 bloodshed in Baghdad, acknowledged that it was difficult to question the wars in the face of the losses.       
“But war ultimately is a political act, and I take comfort and pride that we as a military organization, myself as a commander of those soldiers who died, the others who were wounded and I think the American Army writ large, that we did our duty,” he said. “And there is honor in itself of doing your duty. I mean you could probably push back on me and say you’re still saying the war’s not worth it. But I’m a soldier, and I go where I’m told to go, and I do my duty as best I can.”       
Colonel Meese’s opposing argument is that warfare cannot be divorced from its political, economic and psychological dimensions — the view advanced in the bible of counterinsurgents, the U.S. Army/Marine Corps Counterinsurgency Field Manual that was revised under General Petraeus in 2006. Hailed as a new way of warfare (although drawing on counterinsurgencies fought by the United States in Vietnam in the 1960s and the Philippines from 1899 to 1902, among others), the manual promoted the protection of civilian populations, reconstruction and development aid.     "Nobody should ever underestimate the costs and the risks involved with counterinsurgency, but neither should you take that off the table,” said Col. Michael J. Meese.                             “Warfare in a dangerous environment is ultimately a human endeavor, and engaging with the population is something that has to be done in order to try to influence their trajectory,” Colonel Meese said.        In Afghanistan, Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal so aggressively pushed the doctrine when he was the top commander there that troops complained they had to hold their firepower. General Petraeus issued guidelines that clarified that troops had the right to self-defense when he took over, but by then counterinsurgency had attracted powerful critics, chief among them Mr. Biden and veteran military officers who denigrated it as armed nation building.       
When Mr. Obama announced last June that he would withdraw by the end of this summer the 30,000 additional troops he sent to Afghanistan — earlier than the military wanted or expected — the doctrine seemed to be on life support. General Petraeus has since become director of the Central Intelligence Agency, where his mission is covertly killing the enemy, not winning the people.       
Now, as American troops head home from Afghanistan, where the new strategy will be a narrow one of hunting insurgents, the arguments at West Point are playing out in war colleges, academic journals and books, and will be for decades. (The argument has barely begun over whether violence came down in Iraq in 2007 because of the American troop increase or the Anbar Awakening, when Sunni tribes turned against the insurgency.) To Col. Gregory A. Daddis, a West Point history professor, the debate is also about the role of the military as the war winds down. “We’re not really sure right now what the Army is for,” he said.       
To officers like Brig. Gen. H.R. McMaster, much of the debate presents a false either-or dilemma. General McMaster, who used counterinsurgency to secure the Iraqi city of Tal Afar in 2005 and returned recently from Kabul as head of a task force fighting corruption, said that without counterinsurgency, “There’s a tendency to use the application of military force as an end in itself.”       
To John Nagl, a retired Army lieutenant colonel who fought in Iraq, wrote a book about counterinsurgency and now teaches at the United States Naval Academy, American foreign policy should “ensure that we never have to do this again.”       
Does counterinsurgency work? “Yes,” he said. “Is it worth what you paid for it? That’s an entirely different question.”         

Offline briarpatch

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Re: West Point Is Divided on a War Doctrine’s Fate
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2012, 10:05:41 AM »
Wars are fought not because they need to be for the greater good of man but because of the greater good of the elite. In the article the number, 1 trillion dollars was spent. Now I ask. Who got that 1 trillion dollars and would they have gotten it during peace?
The muslim countries are now being all given over to the muslim brotherhood. That will create an enemy that will enable the elite to reach into the taxpaying pocket at will.
Syria and Iran will complete the puzzle they are building. A super muslim state against the world. Someone to fight much like the Ussr during the cold war which sucked trillions from us.

Offline blind ear

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Re: West Point Is Divided on a War Doctrine’s Fate
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2012, 12:29:48 AM »
It is another third world strip pit for natural resources. Take the resource at the lowest price/cost and sell it to a user.
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The US has built schools, roads, bridges, water and health care systems all over the workd. It has worked where the US was repairing an industrialized country that was crushed by war. Germany and Japan are the prime examples. They took back over after we left, supposedly at a lesser cost than another war for the US.
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The coorporations of those countries were the drivers of thier economies before WWII they are still around. Nippon, Siemens, Mitsubishi, Timken and on. Those same coorporations have taken the manufactureing place of much of US industry. Many of the soilders of WWII felt they were betrayed by the post war rebuild of the countries that they died protecting American industry from. Many of the WWII soilders did get old enough to realize the basis and cause of the war. They went from valient young men to the agressive businessmen of the post war erra, an explosion of growth.
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The rebuild of the countries that never had a modern business political base has fallen in every time they have been left on thier own. All those countries have ever done if fight to take something that thier neighbor had and the weaker suffered. This is true all the way down to the tribal and family level.
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Military tactics only serve to placate the concience of the taxpayers. The politicians only serve the coorporations and neither has a concience.
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I drift a bit. ear
Oath Keepers: start local
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“It is no coincidence that the century of total war coincided with the century of central banking.” – Ron Paul, End the Fed
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An economic crash like the one of the 1920s is the only thing that will get the US off of the road to Socialism that we are on and give our children a chance at a future with freedom and possibility of economic success.
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everyone hears but very few see. (I can't see either, I'm not on the corporate board making rules that sound exactly the opposite of what they mean, plus loopholes) ear
"I have seen the enemy and I think it's us." POGO
St Judes Childrens Research Hospital

Offline jlwilliams

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Re: West Point Is Divided on a War Doctrine’s Fate
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2012, 07:10:09 AM »
  Interesting article.  It does underline a question I've long had.  If the war was about keeping us in the suply line for cheap gas, as many said it was, it failed to do so.  So, as best as I can tell, that wasn't what it was about.  One thing we have gained is a quantum leap forward in prosthetic limb technology.  As great as the new limbs are, I think those who have them would rather have just kept the limbs they were born with.  Again, probably not what we are there to do.  So my question is; just what are we doing?  I know we went after those who attacked us on 9-11, but the war went immediately into action against Iraq who no one thought was involved.  We have tap danced all around Saudi Arabia, which is where the attackers came from.  So if we are attacking those who didn't attack on 9-11 and playing patty cake with those who did I think we have another reason that isn't why we are at war.  Some people say we are in Afghanistan for Lithium mining, opium, whatever.  It's all speculation.  When West Point is asking what we have to show, I think the rest of the country should be too.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: West Point Is Divided on a War Doctrine’s Fate
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2012, 08:09:49 AM »
Maybe  we should look at other countries war doctrine ? Maybe they are making us use up material , wealth and more important good soilders faster than we can create wealth to replace them. Seldom are battles won strickly on power but more so on the enemy being short of supply or other disadvantages . We can no more form a doctrine until we know what we will face or are facing than we can have an economy that produces nothing but expects wealth. We seem to be trying both.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline blind ear

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Re: West Point Is Divided on a War Doctrine’s Fate
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2012, 05:58:31 PM »
Afgan is "strategic location for " and a blocking point for personel movement to where ever terrorist attacks are planned in the middle east. A work area of the military industrial complex.
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China buys the resources as a further processor of the goods, they don't have the industry set up to extract the raw goods of oil or coal in the quantities that they need in countries outside thier own. China doesn't have a military industrial complex that needs a war to be a  produceing business.
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We need the military industrial complex to protect the national coorporations that are actually drilling or mineing in other nations when we are no longer welcomed by foriegn coorporate competition and the govrnment of the country it's self, Iraq as an example. (We drilled and developed the oil resource and then were kicked out, We had to have the war on terror to be able to reenter the country and recapture "our" investment as we were kicking out Italy, Germany, France and Russia who were all doing business pumpimg and delivering oil from Iraq. The US is back in control.)
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Cheap gas is another fairy tale we have been sold. When the US joined the European free trade agreement and North American Free Trade Agreement and the General Agreement of Trade and Tarrifs it was to serve the World Market for the benefit of the coorporations and  the needs of citizens  ended. That is why we are paying for gasoline based on "Free Market crude oil  prices" when domestic pipelines are full and pumping is being stopped. Not just oil but all international trade includeing banking and investment. The Euro zone and China's favored trade status are part of this. Everything from the bailout of General Motors to the US contributions to the bailout of Eurozone Countries.
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Useing up men and equipment/resources is what the military industrial complex is. It is it's own industry., production and consumption. When a resource is gone we move on to the next one. We will run out of people first without a liberal immigration policy and a way to use the immigrants as well. We have the technolgy to fight wars from the bases in the states, we need people to hold the ground taken sometimes but a majority of that enforcement can be done remotely also. The people presence consumes fare more materials, and lives. The main need is a presence to protect against the sabotoge of the production facilities and transportation of the resources, ears on the ground.
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This is what our history has demonstrated to me. ear
Oath Keepers: start local
-
“It is no coincidence that the century of total war coincided with the century of central banking.” – Ron Paul, End the Fed
-
An economic crash like the one of the 1920s is the only thing that will get the US off of the road to Socialism that we are on and give our children a chance at a future with freedom and possibility of economic success.
-
everyone hears but very few see. (I can't see either, I'm not on the corporate board making rules that sound exactly the opposite of what they mean, plus loopholes) ear
"I have seen the enemy and I think it's us." POGO
St Judes Childrens Research Hospital