Reloading the 7,62 russian nagant ? ? ?

[cybin]

I don't know the specs for the 32-20, or for the nagant, or for the .327---but I do understand that the .327 would be a bit too much for the nagant.;however--how would the .327 brass be to load for the nagant? I have heard that the 32 mag shoots ok out of one--and some use 32-20 brass, and some say use 30 carbine dies--if the .327 brass is a bit bigger in Diameter--why not use it to reload for the nagant?
 
I don't own own one yet--just haven't seen one at a price I want to pay for it, but probably will some day.
 
cybin

[coyotejoe]

I give up. It totally beats me as to why people will insist on using the wrong ammo in these revolvers when proper factory loaded Nagant ammo is available and generally costs less than the stuff people insist on substituting.The .327 Federal has the same base diameter as the .32 S&W, .32 S&W long, and .32 H&R, all of which are about .030" smaller than a Nagant chamber.

[leadman]

I paid way more money for my 32S&W (short) than for my Nagant ammo. I even bought some Bertram brass from Grafs quite awhile ago. Looks like 32-20 brass but longer and thinner rim. Graf does offer Privi brass but is out of stock most of the time.
The Fiocchi ammo is higher velocity than the Privi and the brass seems to be better.
 
There really is no reason to buy the wrong ammo or brass to load these. If anything the ammo is more available now than ever. Even Cabela's was selling it for a little over $20 a box for Privi on sale.
 
Has anybody loaded the 32 cal hollow base wadcutter? I am going to find some and try it, but want to make a die to taper the case like the Russian ammo is rather than the crimp of Fiocchi and Privi. I think the bullets are being damaged trying to open the crimp. Some of my Privi fired brass still has about a third of the crimp left on the mouth after firing.

[Hodr]

Hello, hello, hello;
This seems to have popped up again.  My solution was 32-20 brass reformed in the Lee reloading dies for converting to 7.62 X 38R.  I use a hard (?) lead 118grn bullet swaged to .311 over Trailboss, primer is CCI.  After maybe 500 rds it has devloped into a jackrabbit stopper at 30 to 50 yds although it did take awhile to get used to it.  I built a bandoleer holster, think of El Indio in "For a few dollars more".  I shoot it single action and have not had a failure yet.  I have a total of about $200 sunk in it, for that price I got about 500 rds out and now as I can still reload cases my per round price will really start dropping.
 
Hodr
Google   The Nagant Man for advice on 32-20 conversion.  I was lucky and it justs fits beautifuly in my gun with out taking down the block.

[rio grande]

The correct 7.62x38r brass is what I prefer reloading and shooting in a Nagant.
You not only get the gas (and fragment) seal, but the end of the case entering the barrel helps in cylinder alignment.  The case entering the barrels free-bore area also guides the bullet into the rifling.
The gas seal also keeps the chambers amazingly clean, even after shooting Alox lubed lead bullets.

It's not that hard to reload the correct brass - once you have assembled your dies. It's just like any other round except you seat the bullet deeper and crimp a bit heavier.
A key is sizing the neck cylindrically far enough back so as to hold the bullet firmly.

But... so many people report success w/ the shorter brass, 32-20 and .32 mag brass, I would not hesitate to shoot that if I had no alternative. 

[S.S.]

What about creating something similar to a full or half moon clip used with .45 acp. revolvers
and using .30 carbine brass to work up a load???

[coyotejoe]

Moon clips are used in revolvers designed for moon clips or modified for moon clips by shortening the rear of the cylinder to provide room for the thickness of both the clip and the cartridge rim. Also, revolvers to use moon clips eject all cartridges at once, the Nagant loads and ejects cartridges one at a time through a side loading gate like our common single action revolvers. I suppose it would be possible to custom make moon clips for the .30 carbine cartridge, machine off the rear of a Nagant cylinder to make room for the moon clips and then remove the cylinder each time you load or unload. Possible if you don't mind spending a thousand dollars to make the wrong ammo work in a hundred dollar revolver. And the .30 carbine cartridge is not long enough to provide the gas seal which is the whole point of the Nagant revolver's convoluted design.
 But here's a really wild idea, how about we just BUY THE AMMO WHICH FITS THE GUN?  I know that's a pretty radical concept but try it, you might like it.

[rio grande]

I've been reloading for my Nagant with Bertram, Fiochhi, and Privi brass. The Fiochhi and Privi were factory loaded brass.
The Privi splits about a third of the case necks when fired.
I am using the Lee 93gr. RN cast bullet sized to .313". I use the Lee die set with the Nagant brass and it sizes the cases properly. I did turn the end of the bullet seater down so it would set the bullet below the case mouth. Unique seems to be the best powder so far. Seven rounds go into a group about 2 1/2" to 3" at 10 yards.

Can't say it is the best gun I ever fired, but it is interesting! Going to work on the spring to lighten the trigger pull following the article in the Shotgun News. Soon as I get round to it.

I'm shooting PPU cases, reloads, full length gas seal rounds. 3.2 Red Dot with 98 gr lead bullet, and get very few neck splits, even after 2 or 3 reloads so far.  With around 70 cases reloaded at least twice each I now have 3 or 4 cases w/ small neck splits (still useful if trimmed down and used in non-gas seal loads).
Shoots less than 2" at ten yards to point of aim.

The D/A is really not so bad in the 2 Nagants I've shot.
Hold the grip very tight when shooting D/A.
 I would not modify the springs.

[GreyRotten]

 But here's a really wild idea, how about we just BUY THE AMMO WHICH FITS THE GUN?  I know that's a pretty radical concept but try it, you might like it.

Joe,  Slug your bore.  Mine is at .3135".  Pull a bullet from factory load.  It will be .308"  I have not been able to use a bullet any larger than .308" when loading factory brass.  I reload for accuracy,  and it just can not be achieved with the .308" rattling down a .3135" bore.  These guns are capable of very good accuracy with right combination of bullet, powder but not in the factory brass.  I have probably 12 reloads on the 32-20 brass and it is still in good shape.  I think the suggestion of the 327 mag brass is a good one, at some point I might try that.  From the factory these guns were not sniper guns, but you can get close when every thing fits.

[coyotejoe]

I certainly agree that for accuracy the bullets must fit the bore but they also must fit the chamber throat, that happens only with the full length Nagant case. Nagant chamber throats measure .337-.339" to make room for the full length case. If accuracy is your goal then using a case which is .030" smaller than the chamber at the base to fire a .314" bullet through a .338" chamber throat to then slam into a bore with no forcing cone does not seem like a good recipe.
 I load Hornady 90 grain bullets of either SWC or HBWC form, both of which are .314" diameter. To load them into Nagant brass I expand the case mouth with a Lyman "M" die intended for loading cast bullets in .30 caliber. It is a two step expander, the second step of which expands the case just large enough to start a .314" bullet without shaving lead.
 Old story "if I'd known then what I know now" I never would have wasted money on the Lee die set. The only piece of that I actually use is the seater and that had to be modified. The sizer overworks the brass, reducing it much smaller than need be. A .30 carbine die is better for full length resizing, reducing the case just enough to slip easily into the chamber and I could have modified the .30 carbine seater the same as I did the 32/20 seater which came with the Lee die set. The Lyman "M" die must be obtained separately, likewise the RCBS shell holder, so the Lee so-called 7.62 Nagant die set is really pretty useless.
 The factory loads with undersized bullets really don't shoot all that badly. The best group I've gotten from my Nagant was with the Russian Match ammo, 1.5" at 25 yards, but it is Berdan primed. Fiocchi Factory loads went 1.9" and PRVI went 2.8". My best handload with the 90 grain Hornady SWC over 3.5 grains of Trail Boss grouped into 1.7". The 90 grain HBWC did not so well, 3.5 gr. Trail Boss went into 2.6" and 3.2 grains HP-38 in 2.3", all groups at 25 yards rest.
  The photo shows the bullets, the Lee seater with the modified seating stem, the Lyman "M" die and a .314" Hornady SWC just started in the case mouth and ready to go to the seater. It all fits.
 

[GreyRotten]

Joe,  I see you have experimented with the reloading quite a bit as well.  With the 32-20 there is less of a jump to the barrel over using the factory brass.  The cartridge (32-20)actually fits the chamber quite well.  Sure the brass puffs out on firing, but not that much a few thousandths.  Next time I go shoot, I will do some dimension checking of pre-fire and after fire brass.  I have a partial set of RCBS .30 carbine (don't know if I have the expander though) that I could play with.  I size with RCBS 32-20, bell with expander from the lee die set and seat with the RCBS 32-20 and crimp with the lee 32-30 factory crimp die.  Best load to date is the King 100gr DEWC sized .313" over 4.1gr. IMR SR4756.  Back when I started reloading for this, the factory ammo was going for $36.00 or so a box.  I have some of that brass and will try your procedure for accuracy.  Really there isn't much difference in the loaded rounds fitting the chamber, you still have a .312"-.314" pill surrounded by the brass case, at approximately the same spot in the chamber,  either way.  Just less of a jump for the bullet with the 32-20 setup.  Another good load using the 115gr  .312" either Meister or King's (they are considerably harder) is 3.8gr Herco.  I also like the .314" Hornady HBWC, but it seems that they can lead even at low velocity. They are very accurate. Both the loads listed are moderate and easy on the brass.  When I try to hot rod the loads accuracy falls off big time, and using the 100 gr. slug (WC) is probably the more accurate of the two. Perhaps the factory brass could be used to hot rod with?  I also like 3.0gr. of Trail Boss any more than that the accuracy suffers.  And here I thought the only good use for the nagant cases was to make shotshells.  You have enlightened me, some.

[coyotejoe]

Your mention of "bullet jump" reminded me of another variable with the Nagant cartridge. Since you're not crimping the case mouth into a bullet cannular there is no specific, predetermined location for the bullet within the Nagant case, it has to be fully below the case mouth but how much below is something you can play with. Both the Prvi and the Fiocchi factory loads have an FMJ bullet seated just below the crimp which places the nose of the bullet nearly flush with the cylinder face since the crimped portion protrudes beyond the cylinder face. The Russian ammo I have has the bullet seated much more deeply, fully 3/8" below the case mouth. I suspect that puts the bullet base pretty much on top of the powder charge. In my handloads I have not tried seating a bullet that deep in the case but since that Russian ammo was the most accurate it may be worth a try. I have generally tried to keep the bullet as close to the case mouth as possible without squashing it in the crimp operation, so that the full diameter portion of the bullet is just below the taper crimp. The Hornady SWC's have a very long nose so I seat them with the nose pretty much flush with the case mouth, actually protruding out the face of the cylinder and that leaves the full diameter body just below the crimp. The HBWC's, being full diameter right to the nose, have to be seated deeper to avoid having them sized down with the crimp. But I think I will experiment with seating both bullets deeper. I bought some Remington 71 grain RN FMJ's intended for the .32 ACP, thinking they would be good in the Nagant but they are the only bullets I have tried that shot just totally terrible, like 6-8" at 25 yards.
I haven't tried to "hot rod" my Nagant, the fastest load I've chronographed was the 90 grain HBWC over 3.5 gr. Trail Boss at 954 fps. I guess that is hot compared to the Factory loads, the Russian went only 586 fps, the Prvi went 641 fps and the Fiocchi did 672 fps average of 7 shots.

[leadman]

With the necks splitting I tried annealing some of the case mouths but got the brass tooo hot. So now I am trimming the brass to the end of the cylinder and loading a Lee 93gr RN bullet sized to .314". The nose of the bullet is even with the end of the case and being a roundnose I put a mild crimp on the end of the cartridge. 4 grs of Unique is the charge I am using.
 
With this load I lost about 50 fps in velocity versus gas seal cases which was surprising since some of my other non gas seal cases lost a couple hundred feet per second. Could be the bullet is long enough to bridge the gap between the cylinder and barrel. 

[coyotejoe]

Even without the gas seal the Nagant has a pretty tight cylinder gap, so probably 50 fps velocity loss is about right. When you speak of the greater loss from "other non-gas seal cases", if that means shorter cases like 32/20 or .32 mag then there would be additional loss due to blow by around the bullet in the greatly oversize chamber throats. Of course the Nagant chamber doesn't really have a "throat" in the true sense of the term but I'm sure you understand that I use that term as meaning that portion of the chamber not filled by the cartridge case.

[GreyRotten]

With the necks splitting I tried annealing some of the case mouths but got the brass tooo hot. So now I am trimming the brass to the end of the cylinder and loading a Lee 93gr RN bullet sized to .314". The nose of the bullet is even with the end of the case and being a roundnose I put a mild crimp on the end of the cartridge. 4 grs of Unique is the charge I am using.
 
With this load I lost about 50 fps in velocity versus gas seal cases which was surprising since some of my other non gas seal cases lost a couple hundred feet per second. Could be the bullet is long enough to bridge the gap between the cylinder and barrel.

Using the 32-20 brass and the boolit crimped in the canalure, there is even less of a jump.  You could seat the boolit out a little, so it just clears the cone when rotating the cylinder and it would be even closer to the rifleing.  It would be interesting if we both used the same load powder and boolit and chronyed using the different brass.  I'd bet they would be oh so close.  As far as the length of the boolit, the hornady HB wadcutter at .314" is a long boolit.  You might try it and see it that makes more difference.  I have used it with my setup but always seated them flush, I will try seating them out a little and see if it makes a difference.  I have not shot the old girl in a year or so and need to get back to my experimental testing of her.   And Joe, you keep going on about the chamber throats and the 32-20 brass.  It is so negligible it is not an  issue.  The last 1/8" going into the cylinder has a tiny bit of resistance to it, due to the oversize boolit, in the same thickness of brass surrounding it.  Picture is of Meister .312"  115gr.  32-20 boolit.  If these pics don't post I will figure it out and correct it.

[coyotejoe]

Most serious revolver shooters want chamber throats .001" over groove diameter of the barrel and bullets no more than .001" smaller  than the throat. It's not about "bullet jump", the best groups I've gotten from a Nagant has been with the Russian match ammo which has the wadcutter bullet seated down on the powder, 3/8" below the case mouth. It's about the bullet not being contained within and guided by a close fitting chamber and slamming into a bore with no forcing cone. There is no getting around the fact that if  your brass is shorter than the chamber the .314" bullet has to transverse a .338" chamber. Gas pressure will cause the bullet to mushroom into the oversize chamber, tipping in a random manner, then be sized back down to .312"  by slamming into a bore with no forcing cone. Hollow base bullets are very likely to be pulled in two while trying to make that transition. I will believe that is "not an issue"  when you show me 25 yard groups under 2" from a Nagant loaded with 32/20 brass.

[GreyRotten]

Joe, that was well stated.  Makes more sense to me now.  I think I'm going to try some of the Nagant brass again.  It is 2" at 25 yards that I am seeking (though these geezer eyes may prevent that).  What got me on the 32-20 kick was the 7.62mm Nagant fodder was over $40.00+ a box when you included shipping.  Since it has come down in price, I need to pick some more up.  Thanks for the input on this, I'll try your loads from the other post.

[1911crazy]

I've only reloaded for the 7,62 tok and the 9mm mak so far.  With the recent import of the 7,62 russian ammo i figured i'd stock up on that too.  I have the new brass for the 7,62 nagant already primed.   Next i need to rework the nagants action so its not so tight.

[Graybeard]

btt