Pitted bore - what to do?

[tacotime]

Got a little Ruger #3 in .223 used.  Didn't shoot particularly well, so I went to handloading and improved it a good deal.  In the process, I noticed the bore has shallow pitting, at least at both ends, not sure about the middle.  Anything need to be done?  Does lapping help it?
 
Also, can't seem to get the bore clean.  I've ran Hoppe's, Shooters copper remover, Shooters lead remover and CLP with patches and snakes.  Still get dark patches with lead remover, and slightly less dark ones with Hoppes and CLP.  Copper remover had a few blue patches, but that faded quickly.  Not sure if the previous owner shot cast bullets or what.  Not sure why the lead remover would still be producing dark patches unless lead is coming out of the pitted areas.  Thoughts?

[Rex in OTZ]

 This cleaning method is a type of reverse electro plating method that is used to remove the softer nonferrus jacket metal before
   
I'm the kind of guy that understands that nothing made by man is ever perfect,and it usually doesn't do any good to bitch and moan about a company turning out a product with a flaw.I just try to do what I can to fix the problem,and maybe learn something in the process.

I'm in no way mad at Savage Firearms,but they do need to check out the condition of the machining tools that are used in the manufacturing process from time to time,and these types of problems will be limited.
I have notified them about this problem,and could have returned the rifle,but then what would I be learning about how to fix the problem.


I have several different types of liquid,and foam bore cleaners that are for Copper Fouling.They do work good,but on this rifle it was taking atleast 3 days to get the copper out of the barrel,after soaking-brushing-patching.Also alot of Cussing!!!

 

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These are patches after soaking the barrel with some liquid cleaners-
 

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A member on another forum sent me a link for a homemade electric bore cleaner,so I said what the hell,I'll try it out!
It's a simple kit,and doesn't cost much to make.
I bought a Rayovac Industrial continuity testing flashlight for a power source-$5.00,along with some batteries.A Stainless Steel or Carbon Steel rod,I bought a 1/8" and a 3/16" rod for cleaning different size bores.You will also need some O-rings,and Rubber Stoppers that will fit your bore.
You also need an Industrial strength Ammonia solution,your local janitorial supply is a good place to find this stuff.Most of the Ammonia products found at grocery/hardware stores isn't strong enough.

 

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http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f18/making-electric-bore-cleaning-kit-31091/

[Rex in OTZ]

You will also need some type of small funnel or syringe to put the cleaning solution into the barrel once you install the rod.I used part of a brake bleeding kit that I have in my toolbox.


Once you have plugged the chamber end of the barrel,install the rod into the bore with an O-ring on the bottom end of the rod.Then fill the barrel with the cleaning solution-I mixed mine 1 part water/1 part ammonia.
Then place another O-ring at the top of the rod and push it into the barrel,so that the rod doesn't touch the barrel.
Since my gun has a bull barrel and no sights,I just used a clamp and a piece of stripped wire to place the positive lead to.The negative just gets hooked to the rod in the bore;


If everything is good,when the Flashlight is turned on,the bulb will just faintly glow.If the rod is touching the barrel anywhere,the bulb will be bright.

After a few seconds,you will see the solution in the barrel start to foam,the longer it's on,the more it foams up.I wrapped a rag around the top of the barrel to keep the solution from running down the outside of the barrel.


   

As you can see in the next pic,this thing really works.It cleans the bore pretty good.
 

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[gypsyman]

If the pitting isn't to bad, try some JB Bore cleaner, or Flitz polish. I use a slightly worn out brush, or jag, and just polish the heck out of it. If it's lead fouling, a couple company's make what is called a Lead Away cloth. Cut a patch size square, and wrap it around a jag or brush. It will turn black. Be careful to keep it off the outside of the gun, as it can remove blueing. gypsyman

[Rex in OTZ]

 
The illustration above is a very mild reaction to electro bore cleaning, When I cleaned My mosin I cleaned it till I swore you couldent get any thing out as the solvent and patches are coming out clean with no traces of copper, Boy was I wrong, I zapped the bore with the electro cleaner and it was nasty brownish froth boiling out the muzzle (use a wash tub or bucket) I stood her up in my bath tub with the stock removed, after 40 minuets and 3 changes of the cleaner, first 2 were very nasty gunk burping out, the last was better but still not what I'd saw pristene clean like the above pictures, later on I tried it on my Savage 110 30-06 with pretty much the same results.
 
 
I found that my old P-27 Mosin  (tomato stake) has a very dark bore most the length the bore, the lands are strong and well defined though, with the muzzle trimmed back 4" she shoots better than other rifles I have,  'She will shred a pop can laying on its side at 98 Paces easy' and will hit heet bottles at 103paces useing the heavier WOLF 204gr hunting rounds, I find the rifle really shoots well with a slightly foul'd barrel.
just because its dark doesnt mean its a bad shooter, just limits your ability to shoot a greater range of bullets, Mine likes heavy bullets at moderate velocity,
the rough bore also needs cleaning more often, there is a material called Pufflon, I hadnt used yet, From whats published it helps this sort of situation, Pufflon Lubricating Ballistic Filler Fire Lapping Ballistic Filler.
http://www.pufflon.com/
 
Puff-Lon Lubricating Ballistic Filler reviewed
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-854.html
 
 
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=pufflon&oq=Puflon&gs_l=hp.1.0.0i10.3484.5390.1.7984.6.6.0.0.0.1.1547.7736.6-2j1j3.6.0...0.0...1c.UoGRnY5ra5w&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=c4e208f746d57a1b&biw=1024&bih=674

[tacotime]

Also interesting.  I'm a little afraid of fire lapping, so it will probably be a careful hand lapping process.  Flitz? 

[MZ5]

The illustration above is a very mild reaction to electro bore cleaning, When I cleaned My mosin I cleaned it till I swore you couldent get any thing out as the solvent and patches are coming out clean with no traces of copper, Boy was I wrong, I zapped the bore with the electro cleaner and it was nasty brownish froth boiling out the muzzle...

Congratulations on making your own Foul-Out!  That's what Outers, or now it's labeled Gunslick, calls those electrochemical copper/lead removers.  What you saw, that I put in bold, above, is evidence of rust in the bore.  The electrochemical (reverse plating, as you pointed out) commercial cleaners from Gunslick will NOT rust or pit a barrel, but they WILL very dramatically exacerbate an existing rust problem.  The homemade systems can apparently cause damage if they're not current- or voltage-regulated.  Again, they WILL cause even the slightest rust or activated iron to because significant rust/pitting.  Be careful using that setup again in any barrel from which you get reddish or brownish color in the liquid; it might turn to swiss cheese.

[Smokin Joe]

I think I'd clean the bore really good and then try Dyna-Coat


http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=41538/Product/DYNA-BORE-COAT-KIT

[spooked]

"Ed's Red" and patience, clean it, wet it with ed's red let set 2-3 days, repeat..If this won't do it I'm gitting rid of it!

[MZ5]

I should add, tacotime, that the continual darkness you're seeing on the patches is the rust/activated iron coming out of the pits.  It'll essentially never stop until or unless you ENTIRELY deactivate the surface.  Others have suggested ways of accomplishing this, though some are not very home-friendly.
Having had pitted barrels in the past, I can tell you that it's a _nightmare_ trying to get all the copper out of them.  The Foul-Out will do it, but again it's exacerbate the rust/pits quite a bit at the same time.  The best chemical copper removers are things like KG-12, BoreTech Cu+2, WipeOut, and _possibly_ a new Montana Extreme product, though all my previous experience with ME stuff is that it engages in WWI chemical warfare against the user, but isn't particularly effective against copper fouling.
If or when you can get the bore 100% perfectly clean of EVERYTHING, then Dyna Bore Coat may help.  You cannot apply that product over the top of fouling or rust, though; it just won't stick and so won't do you any good.  Lapping (fire or hand) may well help, too, but how much probably depends upon how deep the pits are more than anything else.
Good luck!

[tacotime]

Sensible advice, thanks.  Quite troubling, but at least the gun is shooting pretty well, down to 1.1 in. at 100 with only 2 loads tried each of handloaded 52 SMK and 55 Varminters.  Certainly fine for hunting.  I was out to try and get this gun to 1/2 before the pitting was discovered.  Maybe it can still get there.  The pitting appears fairly shallow, but a little more widespread than I was hoping for. I do want to stop any additional deterioration.

[Bugflipper]

1/2" may not be out of the question. You're not fighting a barrel band. Assuming you have a non adjustable trigger in it and haven't bedded the forend? You can put in a pre-79 #1 adjustable trigger that is around $60. Bedding material can be marine epoxy for about $10. Neck sizing only with those two modifications may get to where you want to be or better.
 Also a less intrusive method than fire lapping, but easier than hand lapping:
 Chuck a coated cleaning rod in a low speed cordless drill. Put jewelers rouge (or your preferred extra fine grit compound) on a bore mop. Run the drill at a low rpm. Applying pressure to get about an inch per second. Check the bore after each pass. Another accuracy mod is the Hick's #1 Accurizer. It's a barrel tensioner that goes on the hanger. They are about $60 as well.

[srussell]

if it shoots that good i would just tweak my loads

[Lloyd Smale]

Id try some tubbs lapping bullets in it. they sell bullets with lapping compound impregnated in them and if your not a handloader they sell ammo allready loaded with them. There kits have bullets with differnt grits so you go from course to fine and instuctions in how to use them. Ive had good luck with them and usually run them in all my new bolt guns. It really cuts down on the copper fouling in a gun and usually helps accuracy a bit to boot.

[tacotime]

Thanks Gents.  I'm making note of all the good advice and will be making use of it.
 
I'll finish tuning the load for the Sierra 55 PSP (Varget) and see what it can do as it is before proceeding.  That guy had a little 3/4 group going last weekend until 1 "flyer" opened it up at the end, but I am not sure if it was me, and then ran out of test loads.  So I'll try it again. 
 
I just don't want to believe that a #3 .223 with no barrel band and no forearm contact can not be a 1/2 inch gun.