Author Topic: Cavalry Weapons (Read 6448 times)

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #30 on:** October 11, 2012, 08:26:57 AM »

Quote from: BBF on October 11, 2012, 07:24:00 AM

So what happened to the lance??
If the guys in the metal suits were able to use one, you ought to think a guy in a cotton or wool shirt could do so as well.

In Richmond there were /are monuments with fences around them with crossed sabers and pikes . Seems Stonwall had pikes made to defend trenches . sorta a lance

reliquary · « **Reply #31 on:** October 11, 2012, 10:00:56 AM »

The Poles tried horses and lances against German tanks in 1939. Didn't work out real well.

BBF · « **Reply #32 on:** October 12, 2012, 07:53:54 AM »

Well not in 1939 for sure but during the Civil War and later against them heathen "redskins"??

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #33 on:** October 14, 2012, 06:23:44 PM »

Quote from: BBF on October 12, 2012, 07:53:54 AM

Well not in 1939 for sure but during the Civil War and later against them heathen "redskins"??

Why would the Cavalry charge a football team?

mechanic · « **Reply #34 on:** October 14, 2012, 06:39:42 PM »

The heathen redskins had lances at first...didn't work too well.......... $:-\$ The bullet has a greater range than the lance...

Ben

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #35 on:** October 15, 2012, 01:56:05 AM »

Quote from: mechanic on October 14, 2012, 06:39:42 PM

The heathen redskins had lances at first...didn't work too well.......... $:-\$ The bullet has a greater range than the lance...

Ben

I would venture to say when guns were single shot the lance stood a chance but with multi shot weapons lancers could see the writing on the wall.

powderman · « **Reply #36 on:** October 15, 2012, 05:03:49 AM »

Some buds of mine are civil war reenactors. Ed said that in one that he was in that when there were 1200 cavlry charging and firing at once that you forgot it was a show, that the fear was real. POWDERMAN.

mechanic · « **Reply #37 on:** October 15, 2012, 05:09:47 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on October 15, 2012, 01:56:05 AM

Quote from: mechanic on October 14, 2012, 06:39:42 PM
The heathen redskins had lances at first...didn't work too well.......... $:-\$ The bullet has a greater range than the lance...

Ben

I would venture to say when guns were single shot the lance stood a chance but with multi shot weapons lancers could see the writing on the wall.

Yup....thats why they had gotten themselves better arms before they met Custer......

Ben

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #38 on:** October 15, 2012, 08:27:30 AM »

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #39 on:** October 15, 2012, 11:56:23 AM »

Quote from: mechanic on October 15, 2012, 05:09:47 AM

Quote from: SHOOTALL on October 15, 2012, 01:56:05 AM
Quote from: mechanic on October 14, 2012, 06:39:42 PM
The heathen redskins had lances at first...didn't work too well.......... $:-\$ The bullet has a greater range than the lance...

Ben

I would venture to say when guns were single shot the lance stood a chance but with multi shot weapons lancers could see the writing on the wall.

Yup....thats why they had gotten themselves better arms before they met Custer......

Ben

I think that the lance would depend on the battle field. In a cav charge like in the Civil war against a fixed position the lance was a longer weapon than the saber and reach for the initial impact with other cavalry, artillary positions, supply camps, or fleeing infantry would have more shock value than a saber pass with the ability to wheel and draw sabers or a revolver for a second pass.
There is also a difference between an Indian lance and a european style lance.
The European lance was made from hard wood was turned to a uniform spec of length, thickness and point. Tacktice were taught to use the weapon offensivly and defensivly.
The Indian lance was little more than a strait stick that most often tapered and had a stone blade. As far as I know there were not Indian formal indian training schools like the Europeans and some Asians maintained of drill and manual of arms.
Since the indians did not have play book that made the lance either an offensive or defensive weapon it made no sense for the American Cav to cary them. Also the Americans used bugle calls rather then flag positions on the lance as signals like the Brits do.

Hodr · « **Reply #40 on:** October 15, 2012, 12:22:01 PM »

Not real sure but I believe the last British calvary charge with lances on horseback was around WW1. The Highlander who told me about it was stationed in Berlin in 1968. According to him, "the Prussians lost the engagement".

Hodr

BBF · « **Reply #41 on:** October 16, 2012, 06:20:05 AM »

Dunno about you but for me seeing a whole herd of guys on horses yelling and screaming with a long pointy stick out front would make an impression !!

BTW. My Father started his military life in the 100 Thousand troopsArmy after WWI for the Vaterland as a Horse soldier and still trained with sabre and lance.

Part of that training consisted of riding full tilt with both hands free singing " Fall ich runter,bin ich tot werd' ich mit Musik begraben"

( loose translation) If I fall down and die I will be buried with music playing.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #42 on:** October 16, 2012, 09:43:57 AM »

Quote from: BBF on October 16, 2012, 06:20:05 AM

Dunno about you but for me seeing a whole herd of guys on horses yelling and screaming with a long pointy stick out front would make an impression !!That's why they had canister shot

BTW. My Father started his military life in the 100 Thousand troopsArmy after WWI for the Vaterland as a Horse soldier and still trained with sabre and lance.

Part of that training consisted of riding full tilt with both hands free singing " Fall ich runter,bin ich tot werd' ich mit Musik begraben"

( loose translation) If I fall down and die I will be buried with music playing.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #43 on:** October 16, 2012, 10:59:37 AM »

There was a movie about the Australian Light Horse; mounted infantry. Oh Heck! Here!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvjE3h0Ahz8&feature=player_detailpage

AtlLaw · « **Reply #44 on:** October 16, 2012, 11:27:32 AM »

Or a more period correct (Nepolianic tactics) clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vlcuvrM1po&feature=player_popout

AtlLaw · « **Reply #45 on:** October 16, 2012, 11:50:04 AM »

Or the most famous of all...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBiUWQ5YLQ4&feature=player_detailpage

mechanic · « **Reply #46 on:** October 16, 2012, 11:54:54 AM »

Dang it Richard, I gots things to do, not sit here and watch these videos all afternoon.....got any more?

Ben

AtlLaw · « **Reply #47 on:** October 16, 2012, 04:47:05 PM »

Well actually Ben...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMAMNYx6b6w&feature=related

This one actually shows some saber strokes taught and practiced.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #48 on:** October 16, 2012, 04:54:04 PM »

And finally:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQZGvxM_Dq0&feature=related

The Scot's Greys were always my favorite as some may have guessed by my (latin) motto.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #49 on:** October 16, 2012, 05:33:22 PM »

And now, a word from our sponsor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaJSrjv6ckw&feature=related

reliquary · « **Reply #50 on:** October 17, 2012, 02:45:38 AM »

I need to correct my post #31...went back and looked at the material...the Poles did away with the pointy lances in about 1934 but retained the title "Lancers" for their horse-mounted troops. They did try to use those against Panzers and Panzer-Grenadiers in 1939, which worked out about as well as their canvas-winged biplanes did against the Luftwaffe.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #51 on:** October 17, 2012, 04:19:26 AM »

The Brtish planes were canvas .............

BBF · « **Reply #52 on:** October 17, 2012, 04:38:36 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on October 17, 2012, 04:19:26 AM

The Brtish planes were canvas .............

The Mosquito was, I think $:-\$ dunno about the others.

I don't recall if it was the Aussies that rode at full gallop at the enemy just to stop short, get off of their cayuses and attacked as Infantry. It boggles my mind WHY ??

AtlLaw · « **Reply #53 on:** October 17, 2012, 04:54:07 AM »

After watching all those ...um... "documentaries" I came to a few conclusions.

First, there is great appeal in a glorious saber charge; hoofs thundering, bugles blaring and sabers flashing.

Secondly, no matter how glorious, they would be very costly, even if successful, against fortifications, massed artillery and machine gun fire.

There were also other observations that stuck me. i.e. Cavalry may be the best defense against Cavalry as far as keeping them off of a position; once the battle is joined, a handgun can inflict more casualties upon the enemy then individual combat with sabers.

So I think maybe I fell into the romantic trap of the cavalry charge being a major tactic in the CW and by association the saber being a main weapon. More study of the use of cavalry by each Confederate Army or in each theater, in each battle may be in order here ... $:-\$

Hi-ebber, and day always be a hi-ebber!

This short 1914 film clip of saber training would indicate that the (British) military also considered sabers a main weapon!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMNKLFn41IU

mechanic · « **Reply #54 on:** October 17, 2012, 05:28:14 AM »

Ya gotta remember too, Richard, that by the time you went to battle the horse had been greatly improved......

and had mounted miniguns! Nothing garners respect more than an armed helicopter popping up over the horizon, guns a blazin.

Ben

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #55 on:** October 17, 2012, 07:53:57 AM »

didn't Winston Churchill show the way by pulling his pistol to lead a charge ? his arm was injured

Greg B. · « **Reply #56 on:** October 17, 2012, 08:24:45 AM »

Interesting discussion. Several years ago I decided I wanted to own a calvary sabre because I had fenced many years ago and wondered what it was like to use one of these weapons. After researching the net, Cold Steel looked to have some neat stuff. Their video advertising is very persuasive. Top three choices were 1917 US Navy Cutlass, 1908 British Calvary Sabre (similar to the Patton Sabre) and the 1796 British Light Calvary Sabre (used throughout the 19th century). Finally chose the last one mostly for its looks and function.
For an interesting description of the thrust vs. slash argument check out Wikipedia 1796 Light Calvary Sabre. The Englishman got skewered and the Frenchman had his hair parted down to his chin.
It must have been quite a challenge to use one of these things from the back of a moving horse.

Hodr · « **Reply #57 on:** October 17, 2012, 01:16:39 PM »

Man weight limit in US Cav. was held to a max of around 180 lbs, there was an additional allowance of 40 to 60 lbs for all gear. Horses were to be right at 1000 lbs. Premium was paid I believe for Morgans and Appaloosa remounts. In essence part of the calvaryman's weapon was the the delivery system or the horse itself. If you are going to consider the weapons of the calvary you have to add in the force multiplier of a man swinging a saber as about 1200 lbs of man, horse and gear pushed forward at a gallup. I am the first to admit an attack helicopter would win in such a confrontation. I however would be perfectly happy to forgo the high ground to the madman on horseback just as easily as I would avoid if possible the Rotary Flight Officer and his all metal stallion.

Hodr

Greg B. · « **Reply #58 on:** October 22, 2012, 07:10:50 AM »

BBF, the Mosquito was a WW2 twin engined mostly plywood unarmed bomber (variants included fighter, fighter/ bomber, reconnaince aircraft). In 1942 it was the fastest operational aircraft in the world.
After holding one of those WW1 sabres it became obvious what happened to the lance. It was like a hand held lance. While it may have had some slashing capability it was nothing like its Civil War ancestors.