Author Topic: TCR headspace  (Read 1879 times)

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Offline IOWA DON

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TCR headspace
« on: June 09, 2012, 10:34:04 AM »
My double-set-trigger TCR-83 had a problem so I sent it in to Thompson-Center/Smith & Wesson for repair. After getting it back I went to the range to sight in an essentially new .270 Winchester barrel on which I had just mounted a scope sight. Most of my hand loaded cartridges (with new brass) would not fire. The primers had dents in them but not as deep as I would have expected. My first thought was that the hammer spring had weakened or something was interfering with its fall. Then I got to thinking about how flattened the primers were on the cartridges that fired and wondered if there was a headspace problem. I had chronographed the loads, knew velocity was reasonable, and so pressure should also be reasonable.[size=78%] [/size]
I removed the firing pin bushing to see if there was a shim/washer behind it and there was not. I have occasionally removed TCR firing pin bushings because they get clogged up with material and interfere with movement of the firing pin. I was sure there was previously one for this receiver. I assume that the washer/shims were used in order to adjust for proper headspace of the actions upon their manufacture. That is, it would be difficult to manufacture them with an absolutely consistent distance between the hinge pin and breech face. By making that distance slightly large and using a firing pin bushing with washer/shims of varying thicknesses the effective distance between hinge pin and breach face could be made very consistent. Consistency in this dimension of the receivers would be very desirable as the interchangeable barrels would also have some manufacturing inconsistencies.[size=78%] [/size]
Excessive distance between the hinge pin and breech face would result in excessive head space but an insufficient distance (or a too long cartridge like sometimes when they are not full-length resized) prevents the action from closing all the way. The TCR actions must have some safety mechanism to sense this, for when that happens, the hammer will not fall when the trigger is pulled. I don’t have either a Contender or Encore so don’t know if the operate like this or even if the use firing pin bushings, but that’s how TCR’s work. I have four other TCR’s, all 87’s. One has a 0.003-inch thick washer/shim behind the firing pin bushing. Another does not have one. I could not check the other two, because with one, I could not get the firing pin bushing removed and the other is at a gunsmith getting fitted to a custom stock.[size=78%] [/size]
I had a barrel custom made for this action in .17 Ackley Hornet. The chamber was made very shallow and it would only fire on cartridges made with Remington brass (and only with this action). My other actions had insufficient hinge pin to breech face distance to allow this barrel to close sufficiently to let the hammer drop. Even with the TCR-83 receiver, the rims of cartridges made with Winchester brass were too thick to allow the action to close sufficiently for the firing pin to drop. After repair (and without a firing pin shim/washer) it would fire with cartridges made with Winchester brass with their thicker rims. To me, this was more proof that the headspace increased because the washer/shim was not re‑installed.[size=78%] [/size]
Thompson-Center was willing to fix the problem using the factory .270 Winchester barrel to determine the proper washer/shim thickness, but I was concerned that they might put in a thicker washer/shim then was previously behind the firing pin bushing and I would no longer be able to use my custom .17 Hornet barrel in that receiver. They only work on Thompson-Center factory or Custom Shop stuff. Anyway, I decided to get some shim/washers and fix it myself. Luckily I have a next door neighbor who works at a tool & die/machine shop and he made me a bunch of washer/shims in various thicknesses (0.001, 0.0025, 0.00035, 0.0005, 0.0010 and 0.015-inch).[size=78%] [/size]
The results of going to the range and trying out the shim washers were this: First, a 0.005-inch washer/shim would work for my custom .17 Hornet barrel, but a 0.005-inch washer/shim plus a 0.0035-inch washer/shim (total 0.0085-inch) would not work. That is, 0.0085-inch would not allow the action to close sufficiently to let the hammer fall with that barrel. Second, a 0.010-inch washer/shim would work for the factory .270 Winchester barrel (and all cartridges fired), but a 0.010-inch washer/shim plus a 0.0035-inch washer/shim (total 0.0135-inch) would not work. Again, 0.0135-inch would not allow the action to close sufficiently to let the hammer fall with that barrel. Third, a 0.010-inch washer/shim would work for a custom 6mm-06 barrel, but a 0.010-inch washer/shim plus a 0.0035-inch washer/shim (total 0.0135-inch) would not work. And again, 0.0135-inch would not allow the action to close sufficiently to let the hammer fall with that barrel.[size=78%] [/size]
The success of this story is that I will now use a 0.005-inch washer shim when using the .17 Hornet barrel and when using other barrels will use a 0.010-inch washer shim to minimize headspace. Also, I will experiment with my other TCR’s and see if I can put thicker washer/shims in them and reduce headspace a little. I was there when my gunsmith fabricated the custom 6mm-06 barrel, and know he reamed the chamber very gradually until the hammer would drop (in one of my TCR-87’s and cartridges would fire in it. I would guess the chamber is pretty shallow within the barrel, so there would not be excessive headspace with that barrel, the TCR-83 receiver and the 0.010-inch washer/shim. I am sure the reason the hammer does not fall with the .17 Hornet barrel with a total washer/shim thickness of 0.0085-inch is because of contact between the breech face and the cartridge. That is, the chamber was reamed so shallow that the cartridge case is not fully inside the barrel. Previously not firing cartridges with Winchester brass with their thicker rims was an indication of this.[size=78%] [/size]
However, I wonder about the factory .270 Winchester barrel. I guess the reason the hammer does not fall with a total washer/shim thickness of 0.0135-inch is that breech face/barrel contact will not allow the barrel to fully close. If the chamber was so shallow within the barrel that the back of the cartridges were even with the back of the barrel that would mean less than 0.0035-inch headspace with the 0.010 washer/shim in place, but I suspect the .270 Winchester chamber was reamed deeper into the barrel. That is, a missing 0.005-inch or 0.010-inch washer shim  would only reduce the firing pin travel into the primer by that amount, which I think would be very minimal compared to how far the firing pin should indent the cartridge.  I am thinking the chamber was reamed fairly deep and even with a washer/shim present the firing pin may just barely set off primers.

Offline bull

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Re: TCR headspace
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2012, 04:29:06 AM »
Don,

Sounds like you really have done your homework. Do you dedicate certain barrels to certain receivers? Probably the only way you will be able to keep them straight. I had a little trouble with a .243 barrel on my TCR-83. Ended up fitting a shim in the pivot point of the barrel, similar to how people are home fitting handi-rifle barrels. About .010 shim and she locked up snug. Haven't fired for accuracy yet, too many other irons in the fire. How many barrels do you have? I only have 3, 30-06, 22-250 and the 243. I would like to get a couple more, but hard to find any that wouldn't be duplicates of other rifles. Do you know if the TC/S&W shop will do magnum conversion?

bull


Offline IOWA DON

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Re: TCR headspace
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2012, 10:47:06 AM »
bull - I kind of do dedicate certain barrels to certain receivers. For example, like I said one of my .17 Hornet barrels was chambered very shallow so would only fire in my TCR-83 which always seemed to have a long hing pin to breech face distance. It seems OK to have it only for that receiver as it has a fancy custom stock and the barrel is kind of special too. The barrel started out as a .30-06 but my gunsmith turned down a stainless .17 barrel and used it for an insert liner so it's blued, matte steel on the outside and stainless on the inside, and it shoots well also. Another thing is that this stock has a montecarlo cheek-piece and is shorter for correct pull for the set trigger so its center of mass is different than my TCR-87's with the regular rifle stocks. I think because of that, with most barrels it shoots lower with the same sight setting. That is, the gun does not buck up under recoil as much before the bullet leaves the barrel. Anyway, I don't want to have a barrel not hit where it's supposed to when hunting so that's a factor in keeping the same barrels in the same receivers. I also have a receiver with a fiberglass stock I made with a center of mass different than the factor rifle stocks and that's also a factor with it. It is also stronger than wood so it's the only receiver I will use with my .50-140 barrel which cracked a wood stock with its heavy recoil. Then I have a custom 20-ga slug barrel that will only close enough to drop the hammer with one of my receivers and that's not a chamber problem. It seems the monoblock is somehow slightly oversize. On the magnum conversion, they told me they no longer did the conversion. And here a photo of the TCR-83 with the .17 Hornet barrel.

Offline pdkfishing

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Re: TCR headspace
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2012, 06:01:20 AM »
Hello Iowa Don,
How do you remove the firing pin bushing?   

Offline IOWA DON

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Re: TCR headspace
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2012, 02:53:07 PM »
You need a spanner wrench that fits the bushing. I had a gunsmith make me one. One of my TCR's had the bushings pinned in place and I had to drill out the pin before screwing out the bushing, but on two others the bushing was not pinned. Since I wrote the first post I did some testing on other TCR's and found out two did not have a shim, but for factory barrels they probably needed a 0.0075-inch shim and one had a 0.0035 shim and it was OK for that receiver. - DON

Offline pdkfishing

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Re: TCR headspace
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2012, 02:58:27 AM »
Roger that, and thanks for the info. Pretty obvious that you have done your homework & know your stuff. Your essay on headspace was very helpful. Hope you will continue to share your expertise with the rest of us TCR fans.

Offline IOWA DON

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Re: TCR headspace
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2012, 03:00:38 AM »
Here is Part 2 of my experimenting with firing pin bushing washer/shims for TCR’s plus reloading using Redding shell-holders to increase the length of cartridges to minimize headspace. ---- I have five TCR receivers, but only experimented with four in conjunction with two factory barrels, one in .223 Rem and the other in .270 Win. Two originally had washer/shims behind the firing pin bushings and two did not have one. For the two originally having washer/shims, the thickness of the washer/shims could be increased by 0.004-inch and 0.005-inch, and the action would still close completely so the hammer would drop when the trigger was pulled. For the two without washer/shims, washer shims of 0.0075-inch could be added, and the action would close completely so the hammer would drop when the trigger was pulled. Besides the gap between the face of the firing pin bushings and the back of the barrels having plenty of space, the chambers were reamed fairly deeply into the barrels. The Redding shell-holders come in sets so that one can increase the length of fired, full-length resized cases by 0.002-inch, 0.004-inch, 0.006-inch, 0.008-inch and 0.010-inch over standard length. For the .270 Win barrel I was able to use the +0.008-inch shell-holder after adding washer/shims or increasing their thickness. For fired cases, between washer shims and reloading with the special shell-holders, I was able to decrease headspace by about 0.015-inch for the receivers which did not originally have washer/shims. For the .223 Rem barrel I was able to use the +0.010-inch shell-holder so for fired cases was able to decrease headspace by a total of about 0.017-inch. That’s a lot! Also, when previously using the .223 Rem barrel for shooting prairie dogs with handloads with new brass or with full length resized brass, I had a lot of cartridges fail to fire. There were indentations in the primer, but they did not go off. Apparently the excessive headspace allowed the cartridges to slide ahead when the firing pin hit their primers and soften the blow. Anyway, I think one can do a lot to decrease headspace in the TCR guns between special shell-holders and firing fin bushing washer/shims, or custom barrels with shallow chambers.