Author Topic: Mil Crimp on 223 primers (Read 1689 times)

Land_Owner · « **on:** June 15, 2012, 02:23:42 PM »

My hunting partner and reloading Mentor informs me the lot of once fired brass I just picked through is laced, ~50/50, with military crimped brass. Lake City, Winchester, etc., are "struck" around the primer pocket, and another Mfg. prefers a tiny rectangular indent in a triangle pattern around the primer.

I am told these cases are difficult at best with a "standard" button punch in a sizing die and once removed, repriming the case will be problematic if I don't first swage the primer pockets and "round" the outer rim.

First let me thank you for tirelessly answering these "same questions" week end and out while "training" those of us who are new to these concepts.

Are there different primer punches for Mil-crimped cases? Are there swages for rounding the outer edges? What would these items be called and how are they used (as in the swage)?

Larry L · « **Reply #1 on:** June 15, 2012, 02:58:57 PM »

The only question that's stupid is the one not asked. We all have had to learn somewhere.
RCBS makes a primer pocket swage. The "die" looks like a simple sizing die but it has a rod in it. They come in 2 sizes, small primers and large primers. The rod is merely a stop. The action part is the shellholder. It installs in the press where the shellholder goes and has a punch with rounded corners. You adjust the die so that when the press arm cams over, the punch part has gone into the primer pocket and has reformed the sharp lip on the primer pocket to a rounded corner. Pretty simple piece of equipment and easy to use. Once adjusted, you just slip a deprimed piece of brass up the rod which guides it in place, set the brass on the punch and bottom out the press arm. There is a ring that goes around the punch part so that when the arm comes back down, it pulls the brass out of the punch.
Here's how it works and the parts that are in the box:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdkA7vDeaes

If you decide to use 308 or 3006 military brass, you'll need this tool. You can also knock the corners off of a few pieces of brass with a deburring tool. Some guys use a drill but it's sloppy at best.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 15, 2012, 03:12:52 PM »

I have a RCBS swedging tool around here somewere , its been years sense I used it , what I do is when I'm champhering the case mouth I just flip the case over and give the PP a quick spin too = no more crimp grove .

Some don't like this , they say it removes too much brass , well not if done right and it helps start the new primer just like it helps the bullet start on the other end .

stimpy

84Jim · « **Reply #3 on:** June 15, 2012, 03:42:56 PM »

Dillon also makes a totally dedicated swager. Its horizontal and has plungers for both large and small rifle pockets.

As for depriming I've done bunches of both Lake City 30 carbine and 30-06 with my standard RCBS dies with no issues, so I assume .223 would work as well.

Jim

mechanic · « **Reply #4 on:** June 15, 2012, 04:11:09 PM »

I use a small pin punch and punch them out with a hammer. I have a small reamer that I've used for years to remove the crimp. Having said that, I avoid the mil. brass where possible. I've managed to scrounge up enough civilian stuff to do me.

Bear in mind, case capacity is different on mil. brass and civilian, so loads will be different.

Once you get them cleaned up the first time, they will last a LONG time with normal loads.

Ben

Clodhopper · « **Reply #5 on:** June 15, 2012, 04:11:53 PM »

Depriming the military cases isn't a problem with standard dies. The Dillon primer pocket swager works well, I have one and use it on all my mil .223 (5.56) and .308 (7.62) cases.

james · « **Reply #6 on:** June 15, 2012, 04:26:47 PM »

A 45 degree end mill chucked in the drill press will also work. A slight touch of the primer pocket will chamfer the pocket with a slight bevel and take out the crimp. The bevel also helps installing the new primer. It is the fastest method I have found and it doesn't seem to cause loose primers but I am careful to not remove too much brass from the case head.

Savage · « **Reply #7 on:** June 15, 2012, 11:34:35 PM »

The Dillon tool is the best there is for swagging primer pockets. The RCBS die works ok as well. Like many others I've used other methods for crimp removal, including a pocket knife. Got the scars to show for that!
Savage

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 16, 2012, 01:16:30 AM »

There are different ways to handle this issue. I use an old Lee reloading kit. they come with a heavy duty primer punch, used to push out the old primer. I built a hardwood block with a hole all the way through for the primer to fall into and another concentric hole just big enough to get the case into. I then chuck the punch into my drill press, I then put a case into the block. I then line up the case under the drill press and pushed out the primer with the handle of the drill press without it running. You can use a hammer/mallet to drive the primer out with the punch, if you do not have a drill press. I am not sure , but a universal depriming tool in a heavy duty reloading press might do the trick too.

I then take a hand case mouth chamfer tool (think RCBS) and cut the lip that is left from the primer crimp - just like cutting the burrs away from inside a case mouth. Cut it just deep enough to cut the lip out, I do it by hand - it does not take a lot of force or pressure if the tool is sharp.

Like I said, there are different ways of doing it - that is how I do mine.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

okie44 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 16, 2012, 10:58:01 AM »

In the past I have used the Hornady Primer Pocket Reamer, can use it by hand or chuck it in a drill. Quick and easy. You can find these tools for under $20.00 for large and small primer pockets. Don't forget about the earlier post about reduced case capacity, you may need to use a small base sizing die to resize, lots of range pickup brass shot in sloppy, loose chambers. Good luck!

Graybeard · « **Reply #10 on:** June 16, 2012, 04:37:30 PM »

Most die manufacturers also make a special decapping die that isn't supposed to break. It can be used to deprime any case (OK any within reason) and is primarily intended for those with crimped in primers. I've always just used my regular dies but it's good to have extra pins on hand if you do a lot of military brass.

I have the RCBS die to swage primer pockets. It's slow but works fine.

facetious · « **Reply #11 on:** June 16, 2012, 06:54:09 PM »

Try the lee decapping die. I have done a lot of .223 and.308 and has worked good. I use it on all fired cases before cleaning to help keep the crud out off the reloading dies. It will punch out crimped primers just fine.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #12 on:** June 17, 2012, 02:13:58 AM »

Quote from: Savage on June 15, 2012, 11:34:35 PM

The Dillon tool is the best there is for swagging primer pockets. The RCBS die works ok as well. Like many others I've used other methods for crimp removal, including a pocket knife. Got the scars to show for that!
Savage

Right on Brother!!!

If you gonna chamfer, IE remove material you need to get a feel for what your doing. Remove too much and you have wasted a case.

IMHO swaging is your best bet and of all that I have used the Dillon is the best. It is a tad expensive so many go with the RCBS or Hornady or even the Lyman tools. Of the three I like RCBS and Hornady best.

Good luck,
CW

necchi · « **Reply #13 on:** June 17, 2012, 03:59:24 AM »

CW is spot on;

Quote

If you gonna chamfer, IE remove material you need to get a feel for what your doing. Remove too much and you have wasted a case.

The Lyman tool sucks, it's too easy to get it at a little angle and mess up the pocket, primers will fit loose and you'll be sad.
I use the RCBS chamfer tool, chucked in a drill press and hold cases in a wood "pliers" I made. It works OK, short learning curve, I've done about 1000-223.

Quote

IMHO swaging is your best bet and of all that I have used the Dillon is the best. It is a tad expensive so many go with the RCBS or Hornady or even the Lyman tools. Of the three I like RCBS and Hornady best.

Yup, NOT removing brass has to be a good thing,
The Dillon is spendy. I shoot bolts and singles so I can recover brass for the most part and can't justify the expense, those 1000 LC I have will last me many years.
I do have an eye out for the RCBS swaging dies at auctions and shows but you sure don't see'm unless they're missing parts or rusted bad. That tells me people are hanging on too'm for some reason or another.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #14 on:** June 17, 2012, 08:16:33 AM »

Hmmmmm......all good suggestions and I went with the Champfer tool and "standard" deprimer. I went through two primer pins before noticing that one Mfg's case, the "tiny rectangular indent in a triangle pattern around the primer" or NFG for No Fracking Good, should just be thrown away.

Creating a chamfer at the primer pocket IS easy and works well. Only 6,500 more cases to debur (just kidding).

Thanks to everyone for all of the good suggestions. For now, money saved and "problem" solved.

ratdog · « **Reply #15 on:** June 21, 2012, 08:59:10 PM »

i finally used all my lake city brass decided the have been reloaded too many times 223 caliber put them in the scrap bucket. i had more trouble with pmc brass got rid of those too. i blew a primer out on my ar 15 to hot of loads jamed that sucker right up. i see why now that the military crimps there primers. shot all remaining loads in my handy no problem.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #16 on:** June 22, 2012, 11:38:53 PM »

nothing short of loading them on a 1050 which does it as a station on your press works as fast as the dillon swager. Its still a pain in the but but its a pain in the but for about half the time of any other way.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #17 on:** June 23, 2012, 02:52:17 AM »

Time I have. Persistence I have learned. Hard tedious work I can do without. Chamfer tools are hard tedious work.

I had thought to purchase an RCBS Trim Mate Case Prep Center. Now that I have watched a few of the YouTube videos of the Dillon Swager and read a few posts, I am thinking the RCBS unit isn't what I want to do.

Some are using a $20 (+/-) Weldon Countersink bit: http://drillsandcutters.com/welcsa-8weldoncountersink.aspx?gclid=CJXMzaPB5LACFa9l7AodzWPskQ

swifty22 · « **Reply #18 on:** June 23, 2012, 03:26:22 AM »

Wilson all the way. I have one for small and for large. I take the "knob/handle" off and chuck the threaded end in a 3/8 drill and put the case in the shell holder, primer pocket reamer in the trimmer base and have at um'. Works great!-Muddy

calvon · « **Reply #19 on:** June 23, 2012, 09:42:20 AM »

+1 on what Swifty22 said. I converted 500 military brass to .222 Remington and reamed the primer pockets with the Wilson small reamer. Made a bunch of .25 06 brass from military Match brass and used the large Wilson reamer for that. No brass loss, easy to use.

helotaxi · « **Reply #20 on:** August 15, 2012, 04:44:51 PM »

Quote from: okie44 on June 16, 2012, 10:58:01 AM

Don't forget about the earlier post about reduced case capacity, you may need to use a small base sizing die to resize, lots of range pickup brass shot in sloppy, loose chambers.

Actually, for 5.56/.223, you CAN forget about the "reduced" case capacity since it isn't the case (pun only slightly intended). Lake City and WCC (the actual mil contract holders for the last several decades) brass have on average the highest case capacities of the stuff that's out there and Lapua commercial brass the lowest. Unlike the 7.62/.308 relationship where the NATO chamber can be a good bit oversized, the NATO 5.56 chamber is almost identical through the body of the round and does not need extra bras thickness to keep from rupturing cases. In order to meet the NATO spec for velocity, the brass needs to hold more powder and the case is made as thin a possible to both save material cost and maximize capacity.

If you shoot a lot of .223 and crimped range pickup is common where you shoot, the Dillon tool pays for itself rather quickly and since it will last forever, I consider it money well spent.

gramps1 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 17, 2012, 07:33:51 PM »

Well It is nice to hear others have the same problem I am. I have Lee dies, Lee single stage, and I cannot get the primers out. I have wrecked the table even with a 3/4 inch plywood over it. No spent primers have come out with my set up-PMC brass once fired in my Handi-rifle. I need a better, small(I live in a trailer), very sturdy table that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Does any one know of such an animal. Thanks.
gramps1

helotaxi · « **Reply #22 on:** August 18, 2012, 04:26:43 AM »

PMC primers are the only ones that I've had problems with and I've discovered it's because of the sealant they use, not the crimp. With the Lee dies I discovered that the depriming stem would push up out of the collet without removing the primer. My solution was a small ballpeen hammer and a swift rap on the protruding decapping stem. Never failed to remove a primer. After that the PMC brass worked just like any other. Remove the crimp via your method of choice and load as normal.

twoshooter · « **Reply #23 on:** August 21, 2012, 04:07:00 PM »

I bought a bucket full on here from someone who failed to mention there was a lot of the LC brass in there, but it was so cheap I should have thought of it. I was happy anyway, I use an RCBS Rockchucker and set the pins just long enough to poke out the primers to insure minimum flex. No problem, although I did replace a couple pins. I used the chamfer tool chucked in a cordless drill and did some every night for a week or so last winter while watching TV, just beveled the edges. I may get them loaded this winter

jhalcott · « **Reply #24 on:** August 21, 2012, 04:43:30 PM »

The last time I was at the range, there was a LOT of .223 empties on the ground. I picked up a 3# coffee can of it. I found a LOT of crimped primers in that can full! All marked .223 ! I'd guess that 40% were crimped. Some even had smaller than usual flash holes that would grab onto the decapping pin as I retracted the handle. I had to replace the pulled pin a few times. Still trying to decide if I want to use the brass, reform it to 7TC/U or scrap it. NAH!! I have to much time and work in it already to scrap it. Probably make 7tc/u with it!