Author Topic: Makings for a Strong Breech in a Muzzle Loading Cannon?  (Read 1153 times)

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Offline 5kwkdw3

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Makings for a Strong Breech in a Muzzle Loading Cannon?
« on: August 16, 2012, 11:47:43 PM »
It's funny, but E-Bay has a NO GUN or anything that shoots policy.  You'll often see locks, stocks, and barrels each sold separately to comply with that rule, but then there are black powder cannon.  Although most are small scale and in the rifle/pistol caliber you'll frequently find a copy of a famous barrel to a full carriage with limber and it might go to .75 caliber.  A lot are .50's.  And then you have the large bore noise makers of golf ball, tennis ball, soda can sized bores.  To make them legal on E-Bay a word of caution is given stating that the gun is for signaling purposes only and cannot fire, nor be made to fire a projectile.  Hogwash!!  Any barrel with a fuse hole, some powder and fuse and an appropriate sized ball, can and will fire if it's lit.  I was fortunate to win the bids on two such noise making devices that look like some I'd seen at cannon company sites.  They're multiple fire units with two to as much as five bores with as many fuse holes so you have to tie your fuses together to get them to sequentially fire.  The problem with the one's I've seen is that they are made of aluminum.  Not my considered best material.


Well the ones I got (both made by the same manufacturer) are CNC milled out of a solid block of stainless steel and weigh a considerable amount for their 1" X 3" long bores.  I have a two shot and a three shot.  I also have a BNA Bircher golf ball mortar that's a copy of some famous mortar scaled down to golf ball size.  Some folk on E-Bay make their noise makers by welding a base plate to steel tubing, drilling in a fuse hole and calling it good.


I found a maker of those that at least used 1/2" or thicker walled tubing on a stainless base plate.  I asked him if he could make a golf ball cannon barrel out of stainless and made to fire vertically like a thunder mug.  It's 3.75 inches at the breech and 2.5 at the muzzle of it's 11" length.  This was machined out of solid stainless rod.  He indicated that for that size he would machine a breech plug with a chamber divot, thread it into matching barrel threads and then weld and mill the bottom flat.  He also put two blind 5/16 X 18 holes in the bottom for mounting purposes.  The barrel has a continuous taper from breech to muzzle where material was saved to put a ring around the muzzle like you'd see on most cannon.  Now does that sound like a common or practical way to do the breech of a cannon that size?  Keeping in mind that I am not firing anything including golf balls (it's aimed straight up and I don't like to run).  So I'll just be using a suggested charge of loose black powder, packed slightly and a cardboard over-powder disk for blank firing.


All these devices are to be mounted on a common mortar bed and situated so that I can fuse them up to fire the 5 1"ers then the BNA mortar and finally the 11" cannon barrel/thunder mug.  Should make for a fun forth of July next year or sooner if I could find a place to let her rip.  Back to my question though, what are other ways to deal with a breech for a cannon this size and to do it safely?  Smithy.
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Makings for a Strong Breech in a Muzzle Loading Cannon?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2012, 08:27:06 AM »
About the only other way if you are using tubing is to machine a plug seat for an interference fit and press it in place, followed by welding the plug to the tube.  The goal should be to seal the tube at the tube diameter with a plug that is thick enough that it won't deform under use.  The only problem I see with a welded screw in plug is the threads will collect fouling that can't be cleaned out or neutralized and that will promote corrosion.  Filling the threads with gasket sealer when the plug is installed should minimize this.

These tubes welded to a flat plate are problems waiting for disaster.  The plate will eventually bend away from the bore which lets bore pressure work on the whole diameter of the tube which quickly causes catastrophic failure, especially for those which are only tack welded together.  The base plate gets blown off and things fly around at high velocities in unpredictable directions.  NOT GOOD!

We can't really speak to your particular design as there are not enough dimensions given.
GG
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Offline Doc Brown.

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Re: Makings for a Strong Breech in a Muzzle Loading Cannon?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2012, 10:04:29 AM »
Hello 5K.  I know it would seem like anything on fleabay with a fuse hole can fire a projectile but thats not true and you should not think otherwise. If a cannon is listed on there as a signal cannon then its possible that its really just a signal cannon.
 
Signal cannons are real things and you should not read into it any other way. If an items states that its not to be used for firing projectiles then thats what the cannon is for. Noise making.
 
 
Heres some not so good info on signal cannons. http://www.ehow.com/how_7801820_use-black-powder-salute-cannons.html

Offline Artilleryman

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Re: Makings for a Strong Breech in a Muzzle Loading Cannon?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2012, 01:54:35 PM »
I agree that signal cannons are for blanks and should not be used for projectile firing.  The problem is that some people who don't know better will load a projectile and this could end up in a bad way.  The media will not report that it was a signal cannon that was not meant to use a projectile, they will just describe it as a cannon.  This will not help our sport.
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline flagman1776

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Re: Makings for a Strong Breech in a Muzzle Loading Cannon?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2012, 02:59:14 PM »
5kwkdw3,
I amnot clear on your description.
Machining a solid bar or block of material, and having the same thickness around the chamber as the chamber diameter, is best practice for all cannon.  Next to that would be the more involved process of threading a solid breech plug to the same specifications before welding. 
There's not enough fuse for me to light any noisemaker with a mounting plate forming the only breech closure. 
I hope your purchases are the former & not the latter. 

Offline 5kwkdw3

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Re: Makings for a Strong Breech in a Muzzle Loading Cannon?
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2012, 11:20:23 PM »
Hello 5K.  I know it would seem like anything on fleabay with a fuse hole can fire a projectile but thats not true and you should not think otherwise. If a cannon is listed on there as a signal cannon then its possible that its really just a signal cannon.


Don't worry I don't.  I was referring to models that I've seen in gunshops made by traditions or CVA or other known maker that are say 50 caliber or maybe 75 with rifled barrels and thick walls (ie. a section of their barrel stock from their rifle business, turned and cut to form a cannon.  Those are made to shoot (at least in the gunshop they are) yet they have the same "This won't shoot anything" notice on them as the others and yet I've owned and shot the exact same models bought from a dealer in black powder arms.  The one I had shot the same mini's that my (from the same manufacturer) Zouave rifle shot in 58 caliber.


Yep, the pipe on a plate is scary indeed!  In further review of what I have and talking to the maker, I was all wet about the threaded part.  It was a turned part 1.5" thick at its narrowest, and press fitted into the seamless tubing.  The weld took place inside the tubing and is continuous around the breech plug.  The tube was then turned down to meet this weld so I wouldn't have a length of pipe on the bottom of my "cannon barrel".  Besides that it has two 5/16 X 18 threaded holes going about 1/2" into the plug meant for mounting of the barrel into a steel or wooden barrel bed.  Now my BNA Bircher mortar is at least 1/2" thick at its thinnest part and is all machined from a piece of 4" diameter stainless prop shaft material.  It appears to be strong as an ox and better made than my 11" long barrel.  It was tested with 400 grains of powder and a one pound lead ball of bore diameter.  That sounds like a lot especially since I'll be going from that one pound ball to a disk of cardboard wad only.  So I know that it can take at least 400 grains and with cardboard instead of lead, maybe 500 or 600 grains?  The maker said to work up a load, but I don't know what to look for if I'm getting too close to the "Pipe Bomb" portion of my load?  I'll measure out my laundry scoop sent with my BNA mortar to see how many grains it is.  Shoot it may only be 275 grains?  Then 400 would be a leap in the noise making department.  Smithy.
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Makings for a Strong Breech in a Muzzle Loading Cannon?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2012, 12:37:29 PM »
400 grains sounds pretty stiff for a golf ball bore.  Certainly it is too much for a mortar.
GG
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Offline 5kwkdw3

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Re: Makings for a Strong Breech in a Muzzle Loading Cannon?
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2012, 03:20:26 AM »
400 grains sounds pretty stiff for a golf ball bore.  Certainly it is too much for a mortar.


The 400 grains and 1# lead ball was the test run for the 11" golf ball pipe barrel not the mortar.  The mortar came with a ultra laundry scoop and I was directed to fill it for each shot with a #22 cork or simple wadding.  Now the mortar does have a powder chamber, but it's to scale of the original mortar so it holds less than a thimble of powder.  The reason the maker said to disregard the powder chamber and use a full scoop instead.  When I get my adjustable powder measure I'll post just how much powder is safely used in the mortar.  Smithy.
Salvation is through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and in Him alone.