Thoughts on GPR, Hawken, Rengade BP Guns

[pete50]

I'm looking to go back into more traditional black powder and am looking at these types of guns - T/C Hawken and Renegade, Lyman Great Plains Rifle. The Cabelas line of traditional guns is also interesting. I had a bad experience with CVA on my first ML, and don't care for the Traditions brand guns, either. Other than that I'm open to suggestions. I think the double trigger set up is neat and would like to try it, but I'm not married to it. I will probably buy one used and try to get a good price. I'd like to shoot round ball and maxi balls with it. I have a .50 now and would prefer a .54 or maybe even a .58?? I posted in the classified section also. I see a lot of these guns on auction sites going from 115.00 for the renegade to 270.00 for the great plains rifle to 400.00 plus for the hawken. The prices vary as always. I'm going to stay with open sights. Also, I have the T/C QLA on my encore, I actually like it. I see in the T/C book that the newer models of Hawken and renegade now are equipped with the QLA system. How will that work with round balls?? Finally, what type of quality should I expect from the GPR?? Anything suggested gunwise should be at least comparable to the renegade. Thanks...I look forward to throwing balls again soon.  :grin:

[crow_feather]

Pete50,
The lyman and T/C are both solid weapons.  T/C is 1:48 twist and the Lyman is 1:66 twist.  T/C has a 28" barrel and the Lyman a 32" barrel.
The T/C has brass and you can get the Lyman with brass or iron.  If I wanted an accurate round ball hunting rifle, I would go with the Lyman.  If I wanted a rifle just a little less accuate, but could shoot maxi balls well and was a bit showier (and lighter) then I would choose the T/C.  Both will get the job done.

However, before you buy, you should check out the Pedersoli's.

C F

[whitecloud]

Either of your choices would be good investments.I would disagree with crowfeather on the issue of accuracy. Depending on the shooter either gun will shoot less than an inch at 50 yrds with open sights. I shoot alot of matches,and it never comes down to name brand,it comes down to the shooter,his care of loading,and his overall care of firearm.I have beat on several occaisons,$2000.00 customs,with my trusty early 70's T/C renegade.All original,it will shoot golf ball size,20 shot groups all day long at 50 yards,and VERY tight cloverleafs at 25.You might want to check out Austin and Halleck's new classic plains rifle. www.austinhalleck.com.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

If you are buying a new gun and you want good roundball accuracy with heavy loads then opt for a slower twist.  The roundball will work with ANY twist rate.  I had a Cabela's .54 carbine that shot roundballs really, really, well.  The twist was 1:24".  The powder charge was a measely 45 grains though.  

1:48 twist will probably shoot roundballs just as accurately as a 1:66 twist.  The question really is "At what velocity is the most accurate load?"

Odds are you will find the slower twist working at a higher velocity and possibly a higher range of velocities.

Depth of rifling is something else to consider.  Ball barrels tend to have deeper grooves.  You'll get that with the Lyman.

Another thing to consider is that the Lyman GPR also comes in a "hunter's model".  The hunters model has a 1:32 twist for conicals and sabots, everything else is identical.  That means you could get a .54 Lyman GPR ball-barrel, then for a little over $100 you can get a .50 sabot/conical barrel.  

So the T/C has one do-it-all barrel.
The Lyman has a two-barrel do-it-better "system".

I'm not trying to steer you away from T/C.  You can get the same thing with the T/C.  Except you'd have to buy a Green Mt. slow twist barrel and a Green Mt. fast twist barrel separately; both are available as "drop-ins".  Then you'd have 3 barrels for you T/C.  A slow, a fast, and the original in-between twist rates.

I prefer the lines of the GPR, but I like the wood and fit-n-finish of the T/C.  So it's a horse-apiece really.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

P.S.

I really like the looks of Austin and Hallecks, but there's two big problems:  They don't offer a .54 ball barrel, and they're overpriced.  

A&H's list at over $550.  I spent $850 on a semi-custom gun.  Roughly $200 of that was spent as "extras" above and beyond the normal package deal.  In other words, if I went with the basic package I would have spent $650, and still have a better gun than A&H's.

Pedersolis are nice.  But again, if you get anything other than their bare-bones models you might as well spend the same amount of $$ to have a gun fitted to you and your tastes.

[clodbuster]

pete50 Since 1990 I have shot my Renegade and loved it.  I've heard good and bad  about them but I know my 50 cal rifle will accurately shoot ball over 70 grains of Pyro and 385 gr buffalo over 90 gr(2"  groups @ 75 yds) with open sights.  I wouldn't be afraid to tackle any game up through elk with the heavy conicals.  They do just under 1500 fps over my chrono.
They do loosen a filling every once in a while though.

[crow_feather]

Black Jaque,

You would find fault with a Pedersoli? :shock:   I suppose that unless the beaver fur is American and of a lesser subspecies, you wouldn't trap it.  You probably only want beaver that get trapped by those 1:66 traps.  The ones that squeeze with more power than those 1:48 traps.  :lol:

On the serious side - I agree with your views on the slow twist deep groove barrels having better accuracy with heavier charges.  

There are quite a few factors to consider. I guess it comes down to what feels good that fills your requirements.

C F

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

C F,

Find fault with Pedersoli?  Sure, I could probably find a fault with any gun.  I'm not knocking them however.  They are darn good guns, but they ain't perfect that's all.

Pedersoli's biggest fault is their price.

[crow_feather]

Black Jaque

Since I started working midnight to eight, my humor isn't what it used to be.  I like the Pedersoli because they faithfully copy from the origionals the rifles they produce. And they are better than average accurate.  I shot GPR's for 20 years and have made four or five rifles from kits.  They were nice to shoot around with.  But when I wanted to settle down with one rifle, you know, the rifle you're not afraid to take home to mom, I chose the Pedersoli.  I wanted a rifle that I could look at 20 years later and still be happy with even though we won't be shooting as much as when we first met.  

C F

[pete50]

thanks for all the reply gentlemen. I , well I'm really stuck on a budget and I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm hoping whitecloud locates a kit somewhere for me :grin: I am getting some nibbles on my want ads, but nothing in my price range. I started this adventure thinking I was looking for a backup gun for my encore. I am taking my time.  ? I don't want to lower my expectations for the rifles I'm interested in buying, but can't raise them, either. I was really hoping someone that had "upgraded" to an inline might want some scope money, lol. I guess as I get more experienced with deer hunting, I am not as enthralled with harvesting deer with my scoped rifles. The way in which I am taking deer is slowly becoming more important to me. Although my work and family prevent me from hunting more often at this time, I treasure the time I have bowhunting and BP hunting. Rifle season is still fun, but I still carry my ML in the woods. My friends think I'm nuts for that, lolIt's amazing the attitude change I have simply by carrying a gun with a ML barrell on it as compared to my 30.06 barrell. Realistically, for me, there is no difference on the first shot bewteen the two in my hunting settings. OH well, I'm still looking.....ramble ramble ramble. Pete

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Pete,

Check out www.midsouthshooterssupply.com  They can sell you a GPR for well under $400.  And if your willing to spend a weekend, you can do the kit for under $300.

Crow Feather,

I agree, the Pedersolis are a notch above the rest in terms of something to look at and shoot.  I owned one of their .32 Kentuckys, and I had a ball plastering squirrels with it.

However, there were a few of things that soured my Pedersoli experience.  One, the barrel was .32 but the stock was channeled for a 5/16" ramrod.  This made the fit in the bbl snug.  The snug fit meant that any grit stuck to the rod was forced against the muzzle crown as there was no room for a muzzle protector.  I eventually eroded the crown to the point where I was completely missing squirrels at 15 feet!!!!

When I first bought my Pedersoli, my other ML was a GPR .54.  The Pedersoli was my favorite.  Cheap to shoot, accurate, and no recoil, plus the romance of it being flintlock whereas my GPR was caplock.

The fact that it was my favorite probably lead to it's early demise by eroding down the muzzle within about 5 years.  Towards the end of that 5 years, I managed to get a semi-custom flintlock from TVM (.54).   The TVM is more accurate, more fun, better looking, and easier to clean.

After cleaning the TVM I realized how much of a hassle the Pedersoli was.  The Pedersoli has a 13/16" across the flats bbl.  That was actually too small for that flintlock flush tube thing that works so well with my TVM.  Also the Pedersoli has a patent breach which makes flushing the barrel a necessity for cleaning.

Well, when my Pedersoli crapped out on me, I looked into getting a replacement barrel for it.  Pedersoli wanted $200!  And I couldn't get a .36 caliber to allow room for a muzzle guard.  I could spend about that and get a Green Mt. bbl custom fit to the gun in any caliber.  Figuring I had nothing to lose, I filed down the muzzle until I could see rifling again.  Accuracy was restored.

But now I had a .32 that I was hesitant to shoot for fear that the ramrod would erode the barrel and I hated cleaning it, now that I knew how easy my TVM is.    I ended up selling it.

Now, I am in the market for another squirrel gun.  I will definitely consider a Pedersoli, but this time it won't be a .32.  I'll get a .36.  

However, every time I look at the price of the Pedersoli's, I think "For a little more $ I can get a TVM and have it to my liking."

Sometimes that "little more $" just ain't there though, for which I'm grateful that Pedersoli is around.

[crow_feather]

Black Jaque,

May God have Mercy on my dear Italian heart - but - if I was to try a squirrel gun, be it flint or pop gun, I have ta admit that I'd be lookin at them Track of the wolf kits.

There - I said it - Now my Italian father is spinnin in his grave.

C F

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

C.F.

Nonsense!  If your father was Italian, then a kit gun made by Crow Feather is "Italian-made".  Maybe not "made in Italy", but certainly made by an Italian craftsman that your father would be proud of.

TVM is owned by Matt Avance.  Is Avance Italian?  It sounds French, maybe in light of the way France is acting recently, Mr. Avance would consider putting an Italian suffix to his name.  I have a co-worker who's surname ends in -eau.  After France refused to support us in Iraq, and now they've outlawed religious symbols, he has been referring to his last name as ending in -eauski. :lol:

[Longcruise]

Hi Pete 50,

Here's a bit of my own observations after 30 years of shooting TC Hawkens and 23 years of shooting Lyman GP's.

The diff in the twist rate is not the big deal it's always cracked up to be.  Take a look at the twis rate of the original 1803 Harpers Ferry rifles.  Just a bit slower than 1/48!

My TC .50 would shoot with match grade accuracy (even if I didn't ) with a PBR and 70 grains of ffg.  My .54 TC would shoot match grade with 80 grains of ff and a PBR.  The .50 was a deer killing machine with 90 grains of ff and plenty accurate.  The .54 was a dandy elk rifle with 100 gr ff and it too was plenty accurate.

The Two GPR's will shoot a .54 pbr with fine accuracy with any charge from 60 to 120 gr of ff.  Interesting thing is that when I compared over a chronograph between the tc .54 at 100 grains and the GP at 120 the velocity was almost identical.  Why?  The patch ball combo in the TC was much tighter.

BTW, both of my GP's were made at a time when the twist rate was 1/66, but the ones you buy today are 1/60.  Not that it probably matters much :-)

You can buy either in a kit but the TC is dang near finsihed for you while the GP can be done in a weekend only by a very few rare people (i'm not one :-) )

The GP is less expensive, But, the TC has a lifetime no questions asked warranty.  You do pay in advance for it via the price of the rifle.

Contrary to what I've seen posted above, I see no difference in the depth of the rifleing between the tc or gp.  Barrels can vary though, especially on the italian and spanish made ones.

As far as looks go, that's a matter of opinion but most who look at both fell the GP comes closer to what a late era plains rifle looked like.

Just my .02 (or less depending on your POV) :-)

[Grump]

If you lookin for economy and a kit gun check out a UNDERHAMMER." Built for American Shooters with American Materials by American Craftsmen", was the tag tied on the mainspring on my kit gun I recently recieved. Havent shot mine yet but have been very pleased with the quailty.

[KING]

:-D I have several Pedersoli rifles..............and I enjoy them a geat deal.  They all seem to shoot better that I do.  Today I orderd a Brown Bess( flint......obviously),and attempted to order a 1803 Harpers ferry ..but they did not have any in stock.  I also am looking at the Pedersoli/Gibbs .451 Target rifle from Dixie.  Yes......I will get all three.  It is great to be single,with no kids(I think I gots about 30 in uniform fer coffe everynight).that......and I sold a quad that I did not even know I had fer sale!!!!!!!( hence the above activity).  All the rifles that have been mentioned in your posts on the above are great.I do lean  little toward the Pedersoli........stay safe....King. :-D

[Longcruise]

King, I saw a Harpers Ferry in a local shop the other day.  Don't know if used or new, but if your interested let me know.  I'll convey the guys phone number to you.

[KING]

Longcruise.............that would be a good idea.....the one that I really want is the 1803 Commemorative Lewis and Clark....That is one pretty rifle....and......I thank you for your considerations........stay safe my friend......send me a pm on how much they want for it if it is not too much trouble.........king

[Ramrod]

King,  the 1803 looks like a great gun, however I hope you know there is no real evidence that Lewis and Clark actually took any with them. Some historians claim that the first rifles were not even assembled until after the expedition was well underway.

[Longcruise]

Ramrod, That does seem to be the case.  Most researchers seem to think the arsenal rifles were 1792 contract rifles in .48 caliber.

How would you like to take on a griz with a .48 RB! :eek: