243, reduced and deer hunting

[bajabill]

I will have my son use a 243 this season hopefully for his first deer hunt.  I dont know how recoil tolerant I can have him by then.  He is 8 and a big 75lbs.   I have worked him up from BBgun to 22lr currently.  I have other options I can use to baby step him up with more powerful rounds, but should he make it to the field, it will be with a 243.  I typically thought of a 243 as an acceptable choice, but not bringing much of a safety net along with it as far as deer cartriges go.  Which makes me wonder how far I can download it and still be effective on deer.  I am not expecting him to be seeing a 170lb or heavier monster deer, but would like to be good for 100-150 lbs deer.  I also always thought that the 243 should be using 100gr bullets or heavier for deer, and not varmint/target variety construction. 
 
What I am concerned with is can I break both of my gut feelings, and use a simple old school hornady SP 80gr reduced loading, say about 2800-2900 mv without giving up too much power.  I will be right next to him and the shots definitely under 100yds, and hopefully broadside.  He needs to learn patience too!!
 
Any experiences with this. 
 
I have a 357max I had always intended on using for this purpose, but that gun is just too darn heavy for kids to control and would need a youth stock.  So it was a perfect storm for a new gun. 

[swifty22]

Baja, When my son started hunting I got him a Rem. Model 7 youth with a slim 18" bbl in 243. For gopher shooting in Montana we loaded 18-19 grs of H-4198 and most any 75-85 gr. bullet that was cheap (lotsa shootin!) for about 2000 fps. For hunting deer we loaded 34.5 gr. of I-4895 and 85 gr. Nosler partitions which are in the 2700-2800 fps depending on the barrel. He shot several deer with that load and had no problems w/a center shoulder shot (top of the heart and front of lungs) and the only one that didn't go through was found in the spine (Was a little excitement!) but the deer was dead. He is 23 now and I found a Model 700 260 Rem SS takeoff bbl. at a gun show and screwed it on and it headspaces fine and shoots better. I cut it to 22" and it is a hell of a deer rifle w/fast loaded 125 Nosler partitions. The most important part of this tale is the 80 gr. bullets w/H-4198 (Speer book has these loads) as there is little recoil and muzzle blast and you can let him shoot lots for not much money with the trigger time and not being recoil/blast whacked the most important things. Have lotsa fun w/him as mine hunts varmints as well as big game actively. Hodgdon also has reduced recoil loadings on their website using H-4895 probably suitable for shorter range deer hunting. Good luck-Muddy

[flintlock]

Never down loaded bullets for my .243 but I have killed a ton out a 250-300 yards with the factory Remington 100gr CoreLokts...Velocity had dropped below 2500fps at 200 yards...It didn't matter, there was still plenty of velocity for the bullets to mushroom and do plenty of damage...
 
If you are staying within 100 yards and dropping velocity down to 2600-2800, you'll be just fine...
 
Heck, you could just load up a milder load and let him practice and slip a regular CoreLokt in during the hunt, just check the zero before shooting...

[bajabill]

thanks,  I was targeting upwards of 1500 of muz energy, so you guys are confirming that should not be too inhumane.  I got a new Savage Axis Youth for a nice little price.  It weighs about 7.1lbs with scope, my 357max handi rifle is almost 8.5 with scope.  The big factor was the stock fit however.
 
my next thought was if a premium constuction bullet was required, but I typically think lower speeds are better for lower tech bullets.
 
 
 
And I was half way thru a sentence outlining my scheme to sneek a full power bullet in for the hunt, but did not want to seem mean spirited and hit the delete button     On another occasion I was discussing my 375HH with the savage on/off muzzle brake, where I would talk about how the gun really did not kick that much and have a friend give it a try and quickly twist it to "quiet".  That was all hypothetical of course and I have shot it with the brake turned off - it kicks.
 
 
 

[spinafish]

I like your thinking..no sense making the child gun shy and inducing a flinch..the standard cup and core bullets are what is needed for good expansion at these reduced speeds.

[Larry L]

I work with the local Boy Scouts every year and I teach 5 boys how to reload. We go over gun safety and the boys get to hold and tinker with the various types of firearms from bench guns to semi autos like an M1a. The popular one for rifles that they want to shoot is the 03A3s and the Colt Pythons for pistol. I sit them down and they reload their own ammo- 5 rifle and 5 pistol each. These boys are usually around 10 years old and about the size of yer youngen. The 3006 load is 19.0grs SR4759 under a 150gr Remington Core Lok. Accuracy is the O3 sights set at 300 yds and is dead on at 100 yds. Groups at 1 1/4" or less is the norm. Recoil is non-existent and frankly, you don't have to shoulder the rifle at all. I've shot this load with the rifle in bags and me standing besides the gun squeezing the trigger- just isn't any recoil. It will hunt to about 150 yds for deer of your size. You can also shoot the SR4759 in a 243, obviously. A max load of 24.5 grs under a 100 gr bullet gets you 2430'ps. I'd reduce that down to 19-20 grs and expect next to nothing in recoil. This fast powder follows the same reasoning as the reduced recoil ammo they're making commercially now. As per Hatchers findings, most recoil is from the jetting action of the expanding gases of the burning powder. The SR4759 is about the same burn rate as IMR4227 which is a pistol powder. There's very little jetting action, hence the reduced recoil. A 20.0 gr load should still give you about 2000'ps velocity and should hunt to about 150 yds. So now you have the data for 2 different cartridges to teach the youngen how to hunt. Now all ya gotta do is load, sight in, and wait for the magical day.


FWIW a 20 gr charge of SR4759 in a 243 is about a 75-80% loading density so there is no powder positioning issues with it.

[deerandduck]

I did the same thing with my daughter.  DId the 243 reduced load thing.  It was with the Sierra 85 gr BTHP, with some book value of H4895 (they publish a reduced load) for about 2300-2400 fps.  She killed a nice small 8 pt with it.  Problem was small entrance and small exit, no expansion.  I called Sierra and they said with the bullet, you need at least 2800 fps to properly expand.  So be careful of bullet selection.  However, I moved her up to some 100 gr bullets at about 2900 fps and she can not tell the difference.  they have killed a couple for her so it works well.  She has taken to doing the neck shots, she really likes those, "bang-flops".
Best of luck to you.  And taken him with you whenever you can.  My daughter killed 3 last year and I got 4. Great.
 
Deerandduck

[swifty22]

Baja, As deernduk said the standard 85 gr. varmint bullets might be too hard at the lower velocity. I specifically chose the 85 gr. Nosler partition as I knew it would expand and penetrate well at the lower velocity. Partitions are really a quite "soft" bullet as far as expansion goes (load some flat out sometime but don't shoot the deer through the shoulders, there won't be much left if bones are hit. A friend of mine, who is disabled, used a varmint weight Ruger 77 243 and full loads of H414 w/the 85 gr.Sierra HPBT and they worked quite well for him but they were the best part of 3300 fps. in that long barrel. If you don't want to use the Nosler, get some Speer 80 gr. Spitzer's and use them. I have used them in my 6mm BR contender 14" and they also work well at 2750 fps or so on deer as well as antelope.-Muddy.