12 gauge vs. .223

[mannyrock]

 
    Well, here is an interesting question.
 
    I grew up in an era when the 12 gauge was the be-all and end-all of firearms to own.  It was always the first gun a boy ever got, and the last gun that an old timer ever parted with.
 
   In reality though, (aside from the ability to hit small game that is running or flying), is there anything the 12 gauge can do that a .223 carbine can't do (assuming use of the proper factory ammo)?   And, isn't the .223 equal or better in far more applications?
 
    I don't own a .223, but I'm beginning to think that other than putting an assailant termporarily down with a marginal shot (outside the torso) at under 25 yards, the 12 gauge may not have that much going for it anymore, particulary in view of the very heavy weight of the ammo and the heavy recoil factor.
 
  Proponents of the 12 gauge always seem to point to the superiority of the heavy buckshot loads, but then quickly have to admit that they would never use them indoors for fear of wall penetration, and are back to the #6 shot shell.  (I think that .223 ammo is available that would give minimal interior wall pentration.)
   
    I suppose that with a switch-barrel arrrangement, and a good scope, a 12 gauge with a fully rifled barrel and proper slugs may be able to put deer down better at 125 yards or so, but that too seems like a pretty narrow item..
 
  Maybe I need to re-frame the question:  Aside from shooting at moving small game, and deer hunting past 125 yards, is the 12 gauge preferable as all-around firearm to a .223 carbine??
 
   Any thoughts? 
 
     P.S.-  This is not an "AR" discussion.  Assume equally reliable shotguns and rifles.

 
Thanks, Mannyrock
 
 
 
 

[stimpylu32]

manny
 
The flaw in this is that your not really compairing Apples to Apples , while both are great tools , neither is a truly the Holy Grail of SD weapons and both have their place were they stand out .
 
For inside a home the 223 with the new " High Frag " bullets stands a better chance of not over penetrating to another room were a loved one may be , compaired to a 12g with either 00 buck or even the standby #6 shot .
 
While outside in a close combat type case , the 12g would be better suited ( out to 50 yards ) with Non-slug ammo just for the impact energy that it brings to bear on target . Like I said both are great tools , but could you build a house with just a hammer ?
 
stimpy

[josiah712]

There is no question I would pick the 223; given the space and weight efficiency of the ammo, and the magazine capacities.  Then considering the huge extended range advantage of the rifle.  And as Stimpy pointed out, indoor safety ammo is now available.
 
My 12 gauge is for the birds.

[454Puma]

Ah the simple fact you get instant impact of 9 to 12  32-36 caliber pelts   make the 12 Ga king of  stopping power at SD ranges.  Cause unless your fully body armored your toast!  Even if body armored a Foster slug is going to ruin your day and if hit with 3 or 4 in quick section your not going to want to fight much afterwards!      Recoil?  I don't worry about it as I shoot Browning A5's  and I can put 5 buck loads on target in a couple seconds no problem!

[keith44]

in a defensive situation my preference is the 12 ga, due to patterns instead of pin point accuracy, that makes aiming under stress less of an issue (with shot loads anyway).  As for the over penetration, #6 shot is well and good, but I built my house so that is not a concern.  When the shotgun is deployed, no one would be in the way when fired.  There are times when a rifle might be preferred, but consider the questions from the police afterwards.  A shotgun or a so called assault rifle, and if the media gets wind of a shooting?? I'll stick with my more effective at close ranges 12 ga or even 20 ga over a 5.56mm

[hunt-m-up]

12 guage easily wins my vote for home defense. When the barrel is bobbing and weaving under duress a load of #4's (not #6) will find its mark and you need to move to a better structure if you're worried about 6's overpenetrating. 4 buck works for coyotes and I expect it would be a good compromise for home defense as well.

[45-70.gov]

have a freind stand accross the room facing you


try to toss a marble [BB bean what ever] betreen his arm and body
not  too hard  was it  2 or 3 tryies right....[thats your 223]


now try it with a softball....even a baseball  made it much  harder...[thats your shotgun]
a  basket ball  .....is you shot gun pattern in your yard


i other words  a 223 the misses by ONE INCH is a miss
a  3 inch miss with a 12 gage  is a hit  and removes an arm

[Lloyd Smale]

Limit the range to 50 yards and id take a 12 guage with buck hands down over about anything for self defense.

[cjclemens]

It is just me, or is this like comparing apples to torque wrenches?  Two totally different cartridges, with totally different uses.  The answer to this depends entirely on the situation.

[ironglow]

   I will lear wherever I can...sometimes from my grandchildren.  My grandson was a Marine Sergeant in Special Ops, with 2 deployments to Iraq..Ramadi/Fallujah area (Al Anbar Prov).
  When clearing the interior of a house it was either M4 or mossberg 500..with the Mossy preferred..room to room.  The Beretta 9mm with hardball was "not a stopper"..with those fanatics.
      For close in street stuff he liked the SAW gun..and for long range in city sniping work, he had a special M16 platform rifle ..which he being armorer, built for himself.
   He has much more "up close and personal" experience with the enemy than most people I know...so I'll take it as truth..

[SHOOTALL]

Anyone who believes a 12 at short range dosen't need to be aimed should shoot one. A pump shotgun is reliable to a fault. An AR needs maintance more so than the pump. If you clean and lube your AR then put it under the bed other than the wife chewing you out for oil on the floor it will often have the lube migrate out of places it should stay in for 100% reliablity or collect dust. A 870 can be loaded and lubed or not will work later years later in most cases . Distance ? think about this , first how far is the shot still SD ? second if the bad guy is that far away would you be better off behind cover out of his fire ? I would take the 870 over the AR for several other reasons , no mag to fall out , easier to load big bulky shells over trying to load mags with small rounds under stress. Easy to keep 870 topped off, easy to care for and less moving parts to fail.
 but how about the loads ? If one projectile was the ticket then why 3 round burst or full auto for cops and military ? a shot gun can launch a bunch of projectiles with each pull of the trigger a clear advantage in a up close fight. One other thing the cost , you can have 2 870 express guns for the cost of a good AR . and even a lone ace won't beat a pair. 

[stimpylu32]

What most people fail to relize is that a 12g at normal room ranges ( 20" or less ) will have a group or pattern about 1 1/2" to 2' in dia. most times even smaller , its not just a point in that direction and shoot thing , it still needs to be aimed .
 
For most the good old pump gun will do them just fine if nothing else its peice of mine , myself , I'll take either a short 223 carb. or better yet a handgun for inside work and keep the pump for the outside stuff .
 
If its a point that I need to reach out there with a long range rifle ,  I have other options - Like leaving or staying behing cover and let them come to me    !
 
stimpy

[keith44]

Well just to stir the nest a bit more, my 870 has the first round built as a spreader round.  20 inch pattern at 20 feet.  Ya point it at the target and do not need the fine aim a rifle or pistol would

[josiah712]

Yeah, the spreader really opens up quick.
 
But I think the specialty loads that use cubic shot, are even quicker.
 
http://www.hi-vel.com/Catalog__25/Specialized_Shotshell_Ammuniti/specialized_shotshell_ammuniti.html

[surehuntsalot]

carried a Mossberg 500 the entire 6 years in the Army
most of the time,the racking of the gun would cause the "bad guy" to surrender
no better weapon made to clear a building with,that a 12ga shotgun

[SHOOTALL]

I have nothing aginst a good carbine and when SWAT attacks a building where they may need to spread out it has to be safer with one projectile. But at home with no back up a 12 ga load of buck shot center mass is a good stopper in most cases and that is what you need to do stop the attack and get to a safe place. In my home if alerted to a break in I would wait and not go looking for a long wait. Felony skeet if you will.

[JeffG]

Either you are a rifleman, or a shotgunner. I prefer pinpoint accuracy, the ability to have a solid optical sight.
Couple that with a temporary wound channel the size and shape of an NFL football, and less penetration on most
building materials than most handguns, I want and AR15.

[turk762]

This is like comparing a hammer to a sledgehammer. Each have there own function, both were designed to hit things, but one can not be used in replace of the other. They both have their own role depaending on the job at hand.
I feel very comfortable and secure with a 12 gauge in hand, but I do own a AR and that has its place to depending on the situation. 12 gauge can be used with buckshot or slugs. Slugs at ranges out to 100 or maybe 150 yrds if you have a good gun. Buckshot up close. Shotguns and buckshot were used in the trenches in WW1 with devestating results. Germans hated them for obvious reasons. Close quarters, I would take the shotgun. Precision or longer range shots I would take the AR.

[quasne.inc]

My reasoning for going with a 12 ga. is for me to claim self defense its going have to be at fairly close range and I want all the knock down power I can get as quickly as possible.  But then again recoil doesnt really bother me.  It took years for me to get my wife to get a 9mm carbine for her HD weapon instead of our 10/22.