Author Topic: percussion caps - centerfire??  (Read 1249 times)

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Offline longcaribiner

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percussion caps - centerfire??
« on: July 23, 2012, 07:07:21 AM »
Didi some research over the last week or two and noted that until 40 years ago, nearly all American made percussion caps were labeled "center fire".   A few old catelogues also list percussion caps as center fire.   Even Remington until about 1970.

Does anybody know why?







Offline FourBee

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Re: percussion caps - centerfire??
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2012, 07:19:11 AM »
Hmm!  I didn't know that.  Stands to reason though since the fire hole is aligned with the center of each charging chamber. ;)
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Offline lrrice

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Re: percussion caps - centerfire??
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2012, 09:31:40 AM »
Just a WAG but maybe it differentiated from tape caps, pinfire etc??

Offline longcaribiner

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Re: percussion caps - centerfire??
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2012, 02:46:02 PM »
In PA, we can hunt only with shotguns, rimfire, muzzleloaders and centerfire firearms. 

Cap and ball revolvers do not load from the muzzle,

they are not rim fire, nor are they shotguns.

If they are classed as centerfire, they are legal for hunting deer.

Pa law does not define centerfire nor does it require centerfire cartridges 

Over the years, some guns load from the front, some from the breech and some from the front of the chamber.  Flint ignition guns have been made as breech loaders, muzzle loaders and chamber loaders.  There were even cartridge breech loading flint lock rifles, although rare.  The same if true for wheel lock, matchlock, and percussion.  Pope made muzzleloading centerfire rifles.  Modern in-lines that use centerfire primers for ignition would be similarly classed. 

My position is that center fire is just another method of ignition, regardless of where the gun loads, or even if it uses cartridges. 

The famous English Gunsmith, Greener wrote that the first centerfires were the Dreyse needle fire guns which used breech loading combustible cartridges as early as the 1830's. 

I am looking for some written authoritative explanation as to why percussion caps for over a century were considered centerfire.    If I can find something, I think I can convince the game officers that cap and ball revolvers are included as centerfire regardless of the fact that they do not take a fixed brass cartridge.  According to SAAMI, a centerfire cartridge requires ignition and powder in a container with or without bullet that is in line with the center of the bore.    Most loaded capped cylinders seem to even meet that definition.

So I have a serious motive other than idle curiosity.

Offline FourBee

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Re: percussion caps - centerfire??
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2012, 03:23:17 PM »
What a confused mess they made for PA hunters.
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Offline Ironwood

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Re: percussion caps - centerfire??
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2012, 03:58:09 AM »
 Sounds like the only thing PA left out was rimfires and blackpowder revolvers.  I think there are probably some rimfire 32's still in production and firearms out there to fire them. ;D
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Offline lrrice

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Re: percussion caps - centerfire??
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2012, 04:46:49 AM »
Talk to the officers who will be patrolling your area.  I was going to hunt with a paper cartridge sharps and the local officer told me it looked like a centerfire to him and he had no problem as long as I didn't try to use it during muzzleloader season.  Most and I repeat MOST officers are pretty good as long as your not using a "better" firearm than the season allows and as long as it is capable of reasonable clean kills.  So I'm not going to try to hunt mule deer with a percussion BP revolver even though a 45 Long Colt loaded with black powder would be perfectly legal.  I would however use a 45 percussion revolver on javelina, mt lions, bob cats etc if the notion struck me.  Of course we have bow, muzzleloader and any legal weapon season's here. We also have non-game such as coyotes, rabbits, feral hogs etc that can be hunted with most anything that suits your fancy.

Offline Gatofeo

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Re: percussion caps - centerfire??
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2012, 02:38:52 PM »
There are a number of problems inherent to using cap and ball revolvers for hunting, especially mid or large game:
1. Most shooters prefer revolvers of authentic design. Consqeuently, this means authentic sights. Hunting requires very fine bullet placement, and these sights are not very conducive to such placement.
2. Chamber capacity is limited. Yes, the Walker and Dragoons have capacities of 50 grains of FFFG black powder, but their sights are atrocious. Also, bullet strike is above the target, because these revolvers were intended to augment the single-shot rifle out to 100 yards or so. This propensity to hit high above the target is aggravating in the game field, where one may forget to use "Kentucky Windage" and aim lower to put the projectile where it will bring a quick, humane kill.
3. Range is limited because of the shorter barrel lengths of revolvers. Few such revolvers will accommodate a heavy, conical bullet with enough powder to produce the necessary energy for a clean kill on large game. Some game departments ban the .44-40 with its 200 gr. bullet and 40 grs. of black powder, because of lack of bullet energy on large game. Most cap and ball revolvers would struggle to match that load, and definitely suffer from their shorter barrel producing a reduced sighting plain and lower velocity.
Interesting observation on Central Fire on old percussion tins. Odd that I never thought of that, as I've been shooting cap and ball revolvers for over 40 years.
I think it can be sucessfully argued they they are, indeed, center fire. Really, does ignition matter with traditional black powder guns, especially when you consider the use of flintlocks?
I can understand banning Sharps linen cartridge rifles from muzzleloading season, as they are really breech loaders. Would that they banned modern inlines, sabots, copper projectiles, smokeless powder muzzleloaders (a pox on Savage!) and other methods of cheating from muzzleloading season.
Perhaps a compromise may be reached for now, allowing cap and revolvers for hunting only small game. If this proves successful, perhaps it can be expanded to mid-sized game -- with certain caveats:
a. A minimum 40 gr. powder charge or equivalent.
b. A minimum of 900 fps muzzle velocity.
c. A projectile weighing at least 180 grs.
d. Sights adjustable for windage and elevation, so the bullet can be placed into a kill zone with greater assurance.
e. Lead bullets only. No sabots or jacketed bullets.
d. No laser or glass optic sights.
e. Black powder or Pyrodex P only. I fear that too many shooters would try to cram as much Hodgdon 777 into their revolver to meet the minimum, endangering themselves and others. Hodgdon does not recommend using its 777 in any brass-framed revolvers. Hodgdon 777 is intended to equal black powder pressures and velocities when used at a 15% reduction. Used volume-for-volume with black powder, it generates higher pressures than black powder and may strain the revolver, to the point of damage or danger.
Anyway, this is my take on using cap and ball revolvers for hunting. Your opinions may vary but these are the requirements I would recommend to the game department, if large game (deer, antelope) were to be hunted. I would not recommend such revolvers for hunting game larger than deer, such as elk, moose or bear. This would be foolhardy -- and the shooting sports have never lacked for fools, especially when it comes to loading your own gun.
"A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44."