.35 Remington vs .356 Winchester in the Handi Rifle

[bucmeister]

Also remember Tims Super 35 data, a hot loaded 35 Rem will do better then 2200 with a 200.

Closer to 2400fps than 2200fps. 

Tim

Tim,  In looking at the two images in your post I see that the target was shot with the Hornady 180 gr SSP and 38.5 gr (Of which powder?)  I suspect RL-7 since that is what you were pushing the 180 Speer FN and the 150 Rem Pointed with, but thought I would ask. 

Recently acquired a Handi in the .35 Rem to use for our so called "Primitive Weapons" season here in Mississippi.  My main interest in wanting to push loads is to flatten the trajectory for use in our longish food plots hence the reason for seeking information for 180 gr bullet loading data specifically.  The reason for the 35 Remington version instead of the 35 Whelen is that I already have the dies etc for the Rem because of past loading for my dad's Rem Model 81 in the same caliber.   Another thought was that it sounds fairly simple to convert the .35 Rem to a 356 Win in the event of ftf issues and the Whelen Handi rifles have had their share of that issue. 

[bucmeister]

Well it's almost two months since this post.... Today I bought a 35 Rem and should see it in a week...

Gonna order the reamer. Doubt I will even fire it as a 35 Remington!!!

Thanks guys!!!

CW

CW,   

How did the .35 Remington to .356 Winchester conversion go??  Any regrets?  Would you recommend it as a worthwhile project?? 

Thanks,

bucmeister

[cwlongshot]

Well it's almost two months since this post.... Today I bought a 35 Rem and should see it in a week...

Gonna order the reamer. Doubt I will even fire it as a 35 Remington!!!

Thanks guys!!!

CW

CW,   

How did the .35 Remington to .356 Winchester conversion go??  Any regrets?  Would you recommend it as a worthwhile project?? 

Thanks,

bucmeister

Using just one word...... "Apsofreakinlootly"!!!:



One hole groups what's not to love? !!

The 356/358 cartridges are as near to perfect for my kinda hunting as I have ever found.

CW

[quickdtoo]

Yup, RL7. 

Tim

Also remember Tims Super 35 data, a hot loaded 35 Rem will do better then 2200 with a 200.

Closer to 2400fps than 2200fps. 

Tim

Tim,  In looking at the two images in your post I see that the target was shot with the Hornady 180 gr SSP and 38.5 gr (Of which powder?)  I suspect RL-7 since that is what you were pushing the 180 Speer FN and the 150 Rem Pointed with, but thought I would ask. 

Recently acquired a Handi in the .35 Rem to use for our so called "Primitive Weapons" season here in Mississippi.  My main interest in wanting to push loads is to flatten the trajectory for use in our longish food plots hence the reason for seeking information for 180 gr bullet loading data specifically.  The reason for the 35 Remington version instead of the 35 Whelen is that I already have the dies etc for the Rem because of past loading for my dad's Rem Model 81 in the same caliber.   Another thought was that it sounds fairly simple to convert the .35 Rem to a 356 Win in the event of ftf issues and the Whelen Handi rifles have had their share of that issue.

[bucmeister]

CW & Tim, Thank you guys for the quick response.

CW, 

That target speaks for itself.  Now I have more questions? 
Distance?  Bullet, powder, charge weight as much as you can or are willing to reveal?
What all is involved in making the change on a Handi barrel?
I understand that a relief cut is made in the chamber face for the rim, is that the full extent of the alterations?  Not that simple!
Are Extractor mods needed?
Can 35 Rem rounds still be shot in the modified barrel, if need be?  Never mind!
Do you use the regular 35 Rem dies to reload with?   Never mind!
Did you buy or rent the tool to do it?  From where?

Thanks,  bucmeister


On EDIT:  CW, Sorry about some of the questions, I obviously got my misunderstanding all confused, getting the .356 vs .358 vs .35 all messed up in my mind.  After going back and reading this thread and some others about the conversion it became clear that it is the .356 that is essentially a rimmed version of the .358 as far as chamber dimensions are concerned, neither of which is any longer as small as the 35 Rem.   I got all excited about the idea of converting my 35 to a 356, which may ultimately occur, but not this year.  Looks like the .358 brass is going to be more readily available anyway not even counting that .308 can be necked up so for me this will need some more thought.  Just can't get CW's target out of my mind.

[bucmeister]

CW,  Forgot to ask if your 35 now 356 was a Handi Rifle or some other gun.

[Dinny]

CW's rifle is definitely a Handi. Some blame me for getting them into the .356/358 business, but I got the idea from Gunther66. I have yet to find a load as accurate as CW's, but I hope to get some time next year to devote to load development. It will happen, the caliber is accurate by nature.

Thanks, Dinny

[jeepmann1948]

Pete (petemi) has some accurate 356 loads and 358 as well I understand it shoots very well too
Happy Trails
George

[bucmeister]

Dinny and George,

Thanks for the replies.  I will work on a load for this season with the RL-7 and 180 gr pills and see how it goes.  Then I suspect this conversion may well be on my to-do list before next year.

bucmeister

[cwlongshot]

Bucmeister,

Here are a couple threads that lead up to my 356 handi.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,250578.msg1099460946.html#msg1099460946

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,248255.msg1099441282.html#msg1099441282

This is the one your really looking for... 

 http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,251376.0.html

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,249965.msg1099455527.html#msg1099455527

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,247075.msg1099430895.html#msg1099430895

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,251248.0.html

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,258841.msg1099530183.html#msg1099530183


Grab a coffee and get a comfortable chair.. you got some reading to do! 

CW

[RPRNY]

Wow - this is really getting me excited for my 35-30-30 project. I have to buckle down and find a donor barrel - anyone have a 30-30 barrel that they want to part with?

[petemi]

I haven't worked with loads for the .356/.358 in over a month.  Just too involved with other projects.  When I left off, I was shooting the .356 at a modest 2370 fps. with the 200 gr. Hornady PSP over 39.4 gr. IMR4198 and the .358 with the same bullet at about 2650 fps.  I don't have that load data here at my fingertips.  Both are equally accurate out of my 18 inch former .357 mag. Handi.  I am amazed at how flat this rifle shoots within 300 yards.  I"ve got to rate it as one of the best things I've ever done.

Here is a link to an article by Paco Kelly on the .358 and a quote from that article:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/358_wcf.htm

In my 358 notes I show a load of 54.5 grains of H335 under the Speer 180 grain 35-Flat SP gives over 2850 fps!  That is a top load...and it gives nearly 3250 pounds of punch.   Using 54 grains of 748...and a 220 grain round soft nose bullet gives 2510 fps and over 3000 lbs of muzzle energy... suddenly gives you have a moose and big bear load that is exceptionally effective.  Pushing the 250 grain Speer Grand Slam at 2400 fps with 44 grains of AA2015 gives a killing potential that is awesome on large game in the multi thousand pound class.  And Barnes makes a .358/250 grain solid for those biggies that have very hard heads.  And yes these are 358 Winchester loads...not the Whelen or the 35 Remington Magnum loads.  All from my 23 inch barrel.

Pete

[bucmeister]

Will be interesting to see how the Barnes 180 grain Tipped Triple Shock bullet shoots in both the 35 Rem and the 356/358.  Know that it is unneeded, but looks like it would be a prime candidate for milking the most range out of these rounds.  Due to the all copper design the Barnes tend to be longer than a comparable lead cored bullet which might make the aerodynamic foot print closer to most 200 grain bullets and the TTSX is supposed to be boatailed which should help a bit to extend the lethal velocity range.  The big question is the velocity at which the bullet would not longer open. 

[Dinny]

I already emailed Ty Herring at Barnes Bullets some time ago to find out the optimal velocities. Here's what he said:

 See below for each bullets tested minimum impact rating. They should all do well for you at reasonable distances – 200yds to 250yds.

Thanks, Ty

200gr TTSX BT # 35832 – 1800fps
225gr TSX FB #35824 – 1600fps
200gr TSX FB #35820 – 1800fps
180gr TTSX FB #35830 - 1900fps


Thanks, Dinny

[bucmeister]

Interesting data for sure, heaviest bullet lowest velocity-lightest bullet highest velocity.   I understand that heavier bullets travel slower from the same round, but while I may shoot the 180 from a 35 Rem single shot and barely make 1900 fps at 200 yds I might just as likely be shooting the 225 from a 350 magnum that is still clocking north of 1900 at 300 yds well above the 1600 fps needed for it to open.  My point being, since Barnes touts how great the x-bullets are at holding together across a wide range of velocities why would they not design them all to open at the same velocity??  To me it would make sense to have the entire group open at a minimum 1600 fps or maybe even less.

[giddens1972]

I sent a barrel to J.D. Jones and had it turned into a 358 JDJ.  With the SSK loads for the contender, I am getting 2700fps out of 180's and 2500fps out of 200's.  I am sure you can push past those velocities, because the handi will handle more pressure than the contender.  Uses 444marlin brass.  Mine will shoot 3 holes touching at 100yds, and thats with a crappy trigger!  Mine's a shorty!

[Dinny]

Sometimes with Barnes Bullets you have to look past the weight and look at the length. The 180gr TTSX was made for the .35 Whelen. In that case, I bet it's awesome!

Thanks, Dinny

[bucmeister]

No doubt the 180 tipped triple shock likely will give awesome performance in the 35 Whelen but I still don't understand why it has to be made so hard that it takes 1900 fps to open when the 200 opens at 1800 and the 225 at 1600.  Just one of those kinds of questions I would love to have the access to the right people to ask what rationale was employed to decide on the specific specification.  I realize curiosity killed the cat, but I am curious why.

[Dinny]

I happen to know just the person to answer that question. 

Try Ty!

tyh@barnesbullets.com

Thanks, Dinny

[cwlongshot]

No doubt the 180 tipped triple shock likely will give awesome performance in the 35 Whelen but I still don't understand why it has to be made so hard that it takes 1900 fps to open when the 200 opens at 1800 and the 225 at 1600.  Just one of those kinds of questions I would love to have the access to the right people to ask what rationale was employed to decide on the specific specification.  I realize curiosity killed the cat, but I am curious why.

It's simply looking at vel ranges compaired to average distances used. Then build bullet to preform within those parameters.

Things we know; the heaviest weights in 35 cal are most likely used at close to med range. Because most are blunt noses. Ballistically inferior for anything over 300 yards.
A 225g is new weight, it is designed to give 200g trajectories with 250g punch. So it could be used at long ranges for a typical 35 cal bullet. Knowing this, they let it open easier. IE the vel it will be at on a long shot...

The 200 is lwt, so its gonna be moving. We already know the 225 is bal superior for long ranges. The 200 will be faster, but shed its speed faster cause its shorter.

You need to know velocity. Know ranges needed. Then understand ballistics and a bullets sectional density and ballistic Coefficient them you can look at vel a given bullet is designed for.

CW

[Dinny]

I did some online research and came to a few conclusions regarding the 35cal Barnes 180gr TTSX that was recently mentioned. Since it's lowest impact velocity rating is 1900fps, I think it will be fine out to 300yds in a 356/358 Win. The highest velocity for most 180gr bullets in the 358 Win is roughly 2800fps. Case capacity with the long Barnes should not be a problem either in a Handi rifle. I have some and plan to give them a try when I get home.

Thanks, Dinny

[bucmeister]

Good information Denny.  Looking forward to your testing and subsequent report.  Have not looked closely at the figures but would imagine the 356/358 platform could move the 225gr TTSX at enough of a clip to have it still opening and providing a good thump at 300yds even if the trajectory would resemble a rainbow similar to a 45/70 round.

If the brass I ordered yesterday truly is in stock as indicated it may turn out I will have a 356/358 Handi this year after all.  Right now the gun is headed to Paducah Shooter Supply, the H&R service center in Kentucky, for a factory trigger lightening job.  Depending on when it gets back and how long the wait list is for the 4D reamer changing it could proceed rather quickly. 

Most of the sites I checked on for brass are indicating that Winchester has quit making the brass not even using the "seasonal item" denotation.  Sure am hoping they are mistaken.   

[petemi]

Its got at surprisingly flat rainbow.  Much much less than a .45-70.  That's with 200 gr. Hornady SP running about 2600.  It took me three misses on a running woodchuck to learn that.    I could see the dust kick up, but I still kept overshooting it.  Now it's sighted in for 300

Pete

[bucmeister]

Its got at surprisingly flat rainbow.  Much much less than a .45-70.  That's with 200 gr. Hornady SP running about 2600.  It took me three misses on a running woodchuck to learn that.    I could see the dust kick up, but I still kept overshooting it.  Now it's sighted in for 300

Pete

Pete,

Thanks for the good chuckle courtesy of your woodchuck story.   I have box of Speer 180gr flat point and the Hornady 200gr SP on order in prep for the conversion.  Likely will try the Speers in the .35 Rem until the ream job can occur.   

[nanuk-O-dah-Nort]

could on anneal the TSX's to get them to be a bit softer?

it shouldn't make a difference inside the gun, and they'd still hold together at max impact speed, just allow them to open at a lower impact speed than designed for

[bucmeister]

I've even wondered about running a drill into the hollow point to open the cavity up a bit and maybe even deepen it for more spread.

I know many will say that since Barnes has all this experience etc etc on their bullet designs who do I think I am to dare to question their design or to recommend changes, however that said, I have wondered for years (been using X-Bullets since January 1991) why they don't deepen the hollow cavity to increase the frontal diameter to give more energy transfer.  Guess it all comes down to the balance or trade off between penetration and/or energy transfer because every fps that the bullet exits the animal with is wasted ftlbs of energy that was not transferred to the animal.

[gcrank1]

FWIW, I'm not sold on all that foot pounds of energy expended in the animal, they just arent ballistic pendulums. I know we have to have some way of comparing, but I like things like the Taylor formula, it seems to make more sense to me. Most of all, though, I am sold on 'placement is everything' for hunting or target (that and use enough caliber for the job).
Recently I stumbled onto some info on the net about those cavities and their design. Since I dont get publications any longer I am probably behind the curve, but I would study that out a good bit before running a (probably) centerdrill into one.