22 cal CF's for Deer

[BBF]

Living in part of the Commonwealth countries my Regs make no mention of the Will of the King or Queen. My Regs are issued and enforced by the Province. Migratory waterfowl has a Federal stipulation same as yours. The Federal Firearms Act of Canada does prohibit the use of handguns and large magazine capacity of semi-automatic rifles.
European hunting isn't cheap and if you look at the prices charged by outfitters in the USA you can't say it is there.

[jhm]

     At the vary least you owe the animal a quick death,  You always hear abt. the # of deer a fellow kills with the 22 but they never seem to tell abt. the #s that are lost and die a misserable death.  Use whatever is legal in your state, but that doesnt always make it ethicle, I respect the deer too much to allow it on my property and have too much respect for myself also.  Jim

[tacklebury]

Just saying that the lighter the caliber the easier the redirect.  Objects in motion in a particular direction, tend to want to stay in that mode of travel.  The lighter the object is, the easier it is to redirect its course of travel.  Anything can ricochet, but I've shot a .45-70 or .45 colt through a whole tree, cut down several saplings and still had the bullet arrive to nearly it's exactly desired destination.  I've shot a .22 bullet through what looked like a perfectly open shot in a scope only to hit a branch about 30 feet ahead of me and have it deflect badly.  Bullet shape does have some to do with it also, however, because round balls deflect very easily.

That is a mistaken belief that was proved false years ago. Any size bullet at any velocity will be effected by branches and limbs.

Sorry bud it's called Physics.  Try the second law of motion:

Second law: The acceleration a of a body is parallel and directly proportional to the net force F acting on the body, is in the direction of the net force, and is inversely proportional to the mass m of the body, i.e., F = ma.

If you would like to read more, you might consider the Wikipedia as the starting point.  MASS is the driving force on angle of deflection of any body in motion.  Thus the more force, the harder to turn. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion

[keith44]

Living in part of the Commonwealth countries my Regs make no mention of the Will of the King or Queen. My Regs are issued and enforced by the Province. Migratory waterfowl has a Federal stipulation same as yours. The Federal Firearms Act of Canada does prohibit the use of handguns and large magazine capacity of semi-automatic rifles.
European hunting isn't cheap and if you look at the prices charged by outfitters in the USA you can't say it is there.

hmm, heard a different version from a friend who came here from Germany... must depend on area or country


Since I grew up on and still live on a farm yes I can say hunting is cheap in the US.  Now if someone uses outfitters, and hunts out of state...well yes it can be very pricey, but it does not have to be.

[Buckskin]

Living in part of the Commonwealth countries my Regs make no mention of the Will of the King or Queen. My Regs are issued and enforced by the Province. Migratory waterfowl has a Federal stipulation same as yours. The Federal Firearms Act of Canada does prohibit the use of handguns and large magazine capacity of semi-automatic rifles.
European hunting isn't cheap and if you look at the prices charged by outfitters in the USA you can't say it is there.

Plenty of public hunting land here in the US and you don't need to go through an outfitter.  Most of the cost would likely be getting to your destination.

[ironglow]

  Where I live there is very little "land for lease"...that practice is in it's infancy here.  Normally hunting area is only a matter of permission ..
  I am on close terms with many of the farmers/landowners in the area. They know me and know i am a hunter safety instructor; so I  have many thousands of acres open to me and my son/grandsons.  There also are thousands of acres of public land available nearby.
   Unless I misunderstand BBF, I am surprised that Canada apparently doesn't have a great deal of free & open hunting area..

[BBF]

......
...........................   Unless I misunderstand BBF, I am surprised that Canada apparently doesn't have a great deal of free & open hunting area..

IG
Public Land is called Crown Land up here meaning it has not been alienated from the Crown. At one time all land,water and minerals belonged to the British Crown. For Land to be privately owned it needs to be removed from the ownership of the Crown hence the wording "alienated"
 
It sound old fashioned/strange to most Americans when terms like The Queens Highway, His(Her) Majesty Ship ..... The Queen in Rights of Canada  as example are used.
Different country, different words and rules.  

We have plenty of Crown land open to hunting. The Provinces regulate seasons and species that are legal to take and also stipulate if non resident hunters require an outfitter. That is were the big $ enters the picture. Of course some of the best hunting is in remote areas similar to the USA and you need to get into it. Boats, ATV horses or aircraft unless owned by yourself is provided by outfitters or packers.
 
Interestingly private woodland meaning not farmland or a place with a dwelling on it in Nova Scotia cannot be posted. I as a hunter have the right to trespass and hunt on it.
 
Treaty Indians have the right to pretty much hunt and fish anywhere without regard to season or limits.
As a non Treaty person, permission to enter and hunt their Reservations needs to be gotten, usually for a fee if at all.
Wow this thread is going places

[SHOOTALL]

OK in Va. we are not allowed to drop below .23 cal. so I have no experince hunting deer with a 22 cal. rifle . I do know so who have . I hear a 22 cheeta works well ( a 308 necked down to 22 . it is over 4000 fps ) . I know of a guy that hunted limb rats  with a 22 mag. and took several deer with it. The only deer my grandfather shot was with a 22 RF . So will a 22 CF kill deer , with out a doubt. What the shooter has to know is the limitations of his rifle and his ablity. Question is how many will not take a marginal shot ? I often hunted with a 30 carbine could hit targets out to 300 yards but the reality was a deer was a 50 or less yard target . With the carbine you were shooting a handgun round and after 50 yards you run out of enough power to stop a deer. You might hit it and it might die but the time between the two would be to long to risk. Out to 50 yards they often dropped in their tracks. I would think the 22 CF would be similar in that it's range would be more or less depending on bullet speed but never the equal of more powerful rounds .

[ironglow]

BBF;
  How about a thread on hunting conditions etc in Canada...and what is the relationship between the queen and Canada?
...
 
  Meanwhile; back to the thread;
 
  While I presently have rifles in .44 mag and .308, but  if I didn't have them ..I wouldn't hesitate to use my .223 Savage  for deer.  I have some  Sierra 65 gr Gameking bullets which I think would work well on deer.

[BBF]

BBF;
  How about a thread on hunting conditions etc in Canada...and what is the relationship between the queen and Canada?
...
 
  Meanwhile; back to the thread;
 
  While I presently have rifles in .44 mag and .308, but  if I didn't have them ..I wouldn't hesitate to use my .223 Savage  for deer.  I have some  Sierra 65 gr Gameking bullets which I think would work well on deer.

 
IG
 
Not asking much
 
Hunting conditions in Canada are varied just like in the USA  so it is difficult for me to comment of this in a general way.
 
Her Majesty Queen Elisabeth II is also the Queen of Canada.  She just doesn't live here. She is represented through the Office of the Governor General in the Federal Govt and each Province has a Lt. Governor. All of them have official residences. The current Prime Minister and Premiers submit the names of the individuals they wish to have these Offices  after the present  individuals have served some time to the Queen and She normally approves of their choices. These  Offices are considered Honorary posts and do not come with a huge salary but certainly have their privileges
 
 Legislation after it is approved by Parliament and Senate needs Royal ascent to become effective laws. Royal ascent is given through the various Governors.
 
The Prime Minister and the Opposition leaders( referred to as loyal opposition) pledge allegiance to the Queen. Without going into more details and taxing my knowledge there is a provision that the Queen through her Representative the Governor General can if it came to riots, lawlessness and a general meltdown within the Fed Govt. remove the Prime Minister and this way stop Parliament from any further action. It hasn't happened in Canada but apparently came close under Pierre E. Trudeau when Quebec got out of hand.
 
Re 22 cal CF.
I have also taking fallow deer with 22CF's in a culling operation on a British Columbia Island that had such a huge herd that food was becoming a problem.
 
The best bullet for the 223 was a Hdy HP of 60 gr if I recall. Sierra had a slightly heavier semispitzer bullet that did not perfrom as well. Interestingly a 220 Swift with the same Hdy bullet wasn't so effective with instand drop down kills.
 
The only 6mm cartridge I used during that time was the 240 Wby with the old style 85 gr Nosler PT. Bang Flop every time !!

[ironglow]

    The Canada/UK relationship ..that sure is news to me!  Here I thought Canada had severed any political ties to Britain. I knew they have always treated the queen with deference..but I presumed they were just acting from history, respect and good manners.  I figured the two countries had separated completely and shortly thereafter the new Maple Leaf flag was adopted.
    I know some guys from here who wisecracked..insulting the queen (which I disapprove of) ...and got into some serious trouble up there.
   Looks like Scotland is talking independence again..but I don't think they will pull it off, since they apparently draw more finances from the UK than they contribute to it! 
  Now I get the picture more clearly...and I only live about 55 miles as the crow flies..from Toronto...but there's no bridge across Lake Ontario, so it's probably more like 80 miles or more.  ..but now I get the picture...Thanks

[super mario]

32 kills to date with a 22 hornet, all DRT,  zero wounded, heres 2 from last week

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpTBVDGFA0E&list=UUR9KhmerFSIJCVnT2RIAUsQ&index=2&feature=plcp

[mechanic]

I shot a deer this morning with my Savage in .223.  I had misgivings, but I can't shoot anything with recoil for a while.  A heart shot produced a 25 yd. run, and some kicking when he fell, which propelled him over the bank into the lake.  Great.  After an early morning skinny dip, and a lassoed deer, I got to do the necropsy.
 
The 60 gr. bullet hit just behind the shoulder, blew out the back side of the heart, and lodged under the  skin on the far side...uphill and slightly angled shot.
 
It just took the deer a few yards to realize he was dead.
 
I have no more doubts but that this bullet will kill a whitetail, and do so efficiently, if the bullet is well placed.
 
I wanted a head / neck shot, but the deer was too far, and moving too much.
 
Had to call the nephew to help this old man out....after the swimming session, I was tuckered!
 
Ben

[yellowtail3]

I don't own a 223, and the only ones I've shot were plastic guns, but I am certain that a .223 can kill a deer, and do it just fine. I'm also certain (go ahead,flame away) that at woods ranges I hunt, the 30-30 is a better choice... and lots of peeps think that grand cartridge is a weakling.

[super mario]

I don't own a 223, and the only ones I've shot were plastic guns, but I am certain that a .223 can kill a deer, and do it just fine. I'm also certain (go ahead,flame away) that at woods ranges I hunt, the 30-30 is a better choice... and lots of peeps think that grand cartridge is a weakling.

turdy turdy is one of my favorites, aint nuthin wrong with it, deer arent hard to kill

[ironglow]

 Agreed YT;   Having used both, for most of us in the northeast, the 30/30 would be a better choice..however, if I didn't have another choice, I wouldn't hesitate to use the .223....with proper bullet choice, of course...
  This spring I am scheduled to teach a particular hunter/safety class of 30 for NY State.  These students will all be Amish...so, due to this thread reminding me, I will especially stress that the students understand the need for proper shot placement.

[yellowtail3]

These students will all be Amish...so, due to this thread reminding me, I will especially stress that the students understand the need for proper shot placement.

tell them to just skip the 223 stunt and get a real deer rifle, and tell them that if they really want to be cook kids, get a 336 in 30-30 (or .35 Rem, if they want to spend more on ammo)

[ironglow]

These students will all be Amish...so, due to this thread reminding me, I will especially stress that the students understand the need for proper shot placement.

tell them to just skip the 223 stunt and get a real deer rifle, and tell them that if they really want to be cook kids, get a 336 in 30-30 (or .35 Rem, if they want to spend more on ammo)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
  For those still looking, I probably will suggest just that.  Just as a sidelight; the Amish seldom if ever , buy new guns.  Just think; if you are an Amish guy and the gun shop wants to run your profile through the feds...
***************
  Shop owner: " OK Mr Stutzmann..can I see your driver's license?  No?..well, how about your sheriff's card?
  Well, when did you last vote in this township?   
***************
  You can see the problems...so they don't bother.  Most often they buy used, face-to-face..or try to somehow get somebody to buy them one at a farm auction.  Yup..I know, but if their driver buys the gun , takes it to the field a few times before selling it f-to-f to the Amish fellow..well..
   Then again, I haven't seen the Amish around here do very many "drive by shootings"...
           I guess that's only because they don't have the horsepower for a quick getaway..

[BBF]

That would be the perfect Ambush vehicle,........... who would think of it ??

[keith44]

for as quiet and passive as my Amish neighbors are, I would not want to see what they would be like as a group provoked to violence...or drive by's...


Most seem to have older single barrel and double barrel shotguns. The ones I have talked with have no use for handguns, and care little for a rifle if they have a good smoothbore.

[ironglow]

Smoothbores are popular with them..but they will use rifles..and they sometimes really suck up the .22 rifles at farm auctions..

[hph04a]

I've hunted with a 223 for several years and killed several deer with it. Only once has a deer run after I shot, and that deer made it a grand total of 30 yards with no heart left (no clue how that works...biologist help me out). Granted, I shoot a lot with it, handload barnes tsx or sierra gameking 65g bullets for it, and, maybe most important of all, hunt north and east texas deer which are not known for their grand size. Bullet construction and shot placement are huge. I'm not saying that the 223 is the best round for deer, but i am saying that with properly constructed bullets in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing with it, it is more than capable. my 2cents and my first post here

[keith44]

Smoothbores are popular with them..but they will use rifles..and they sometimes really suck up the .22 rifles at farm auctions..

the .22's seem to be for the "younguns", and yes some do use rifles, but "most" of the ones I have talked with prefer the shotgun. Now admittedly most is five of the seven I talk with at the feed mill

[ironglow]

Smoothbores are popular with them..but they will use rifles..and they sometimes really suck up the .22 rifles at farm auctions..

the .22's seem to be for the "younguns", and yes some do use rifles, but "most" of the ones I have talked with prefer the shotgun. Now admittedly most is five of the seven I talk with at the feed mill

*****************************************************************************
        The ones I and my friend Bill have to deal with are a community new to the area which is just getting set up.  They are a new community..but opf the old-old order..may I say ancient?     They are so staid in their practices that they are very reticent to deal with the other Amish communities in the area.  At their own peril, they won't use SMV emblems on the back of their buggies..a couple of them went to the hospital one late night about 2 weeks ago..and their horse was shot..  buggies come off second best in a duel with a 3/4 ton pickup..
  Strangely, they seem to be trying to push us a bit too far as.....far as state regs are concerned.  Bill lives closer to them and is doing most of the arranging.  Our hunter safety courses are a 2-day deal..but half can be done on line.  Well, the Amish will not be doing theirs on line, so we have arranged for some "home study books" for the first half..to be tested second day.
  Next; we will not be allowed to use any electronic visual aids etc...so we will use charts etc....probably can't use my laser pointer for the chart..  OK..we bend over backwards..
     Just the other day, the elder bill is dealing with asks;  "How sbout shortening that class attendance day to 4 hours, instead of ?"
    We have decided...here's where we draw the line..do you want a hunting license or not?

[BBF]

IMO You have drawn the line way past what is reasonable. Since you would be using the electronic equipment they should have no beef.
 I suppose that the course can't be held on a weekend either, or ?

[jhm]

     I am going to close this post as it has gotten way off topic it went from 22 CF rifles to Omish people and their life style.  Jim