British grenade mortars

[Cannoneer]

I've read that these U.S. made reproductions are supposed to represent genuine British "grenade motars" that date from the latter 18th and early 19th centuries. The originals were allegedly made of cast bronze and have bores that measure around 2¼". The book "Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the Amerian Revolution" by George Neumann is reported to show an "illustration" of one on page 23 (I haven't seen the image). Are there any members here that can shed more light on this subject?

KABAR'S


I saved the photos of these two off auctions a few years ago



Armslist
 

[cannonmn]

I could give you a list of respected books on British artillery, none of which have any references to such a weapon.  The smallest British (weapon) mortar I'm aware of is the 4.5-inch Coehorn.
 
  Ft. Ticonderoga has a "real" wrought iron mortar with smaller bore, but the provenance is uncertain as I recall.  Just because it is in the F.T. museum means nothing; they got donations from a lot of different sources and like many museums, didn't challenge the stories, if any, that came with the junk.
 
George Neumann is highly respected within our Company of Military Historians, and I've had the pleasure of being able to call him a friend for decades, but even a great man can make mistakes. 

[Cannoneer]

I have also never seen one of these small mortars mentioned on any official list of British mortars, nor seen any proof of an existing example.
Have you viewed the illustration of one that's supposedly in George Neumann's book?

[steelcharge]

I've never seen such a mortar mentioned and the bore size of 2.25" sounds really small for grenades/shells. The only grenade mortars I'm familiar with are swedish & german and are in the 3-7pdr caliber range.

Here's an example of a 4pdr german grenade mortar captured by swedes:
http://www.digitaltmuseum.se/things/mrsare-till-4-p-handgranat/S-AM/AM.010249?query=m%C3%B6rsare&search_context=1&count=218&pos=9

A swedish 6pdr grenade mortar on some kind of rocking-sled:
http://www.digitaltmuseum.se/things/eldrr/S-AM/AM.061210?name=Eldr%C3%B6r+till+6-pundig+m%C3%B6rsare+f%C3%B6r+handgranater.&search_context=1&count=4&pos=0

[A.Roads]

This is the first I have heard of a grenade mortar of such configuration, there were mobile grenade throwers, either using a grenade cup attachment on a longarm or the type that are sometimes called hand mortars, but they were stocked like a longarm.
I wonder if the grenade mortar is a confusion stemming from a coehorn mortar.
Adrian

[Cannoneer]

I've never seen such a mortar mentioned and the bore size of 2.25" sounds really small for grenades/shells. The only grenade mortars I'm familiar with are swedish & german and are in the 3-7pdr caliber range.

I agree with you steelcharge, a grenade mortar of that small a bore size doesn't seem practical; and I also don't think there's any doubt that there are many European examlpes of this type of mortar. I've seen Russian examples, and the museum in Malta has a line of them on display on the floor (there are also extant mortars of this kind that originate from the Ottoman empire).



   

[Cannoneer]

This is the first I have heard of a grenade mortar of such configuration, there were mobile grenade throwers, either using a grenade cup attachment on a longarm or the type that are sometimes called hand mortars, but they were stocked like a longarm.
I wonder if the grenade mortar is a confusion stemming from a coehorn mortar.
Adrian

Thanks Adrian, I'm aware of the British stocked grenade launcher, but I too have never seen an authentic bed mounted version.
When I first started to see these two and a fraction inch bore American made models, I assumed that they were meant to represent reduced scale British Coehorns.

[exlimey]

Cannoneer The last pic is a mortar i have not two feet from where iam sitting, the pattern. was made by me back in the 60s in conjunction with Bill Meuse a NPS Historian i still have thr Pattern, but since Lapan Foundry burned down the day after bill passed away last Feb 13 i am no longer making them

[Cannoneer]

Thanks for this information, exlimey. When you originally fashioned the pattern, was it your and Mr. Meuse's intention to reproduce a larger British mortar in a reduced scale?

[exlimey]

Cannoneer  It was Bills intention to stert with this small mortar of 2"3/16 diameter so he could start making bigger one,s for the N.P.S battlefields for the coming Bi-centennial, if you will it was training to see how Lapans foundry could be introduced to making bigger Arty projects by stating small.  Lapans went on the make 1st and 2nd models of the 3pdr Verbruggen. Bowen 6pdr two sizes of Gilpin Howizers and several cast iron copys of 3 6 12 and 18 pdr,s. His largest mortar was a 3"1/2 Bronze one.I have a pattern for a Coehorn, lines of which i took of an original at Westpoint museum. I believe that the grenades that fit ( 2"3/16 ) were the same as the ones that were throw by Brit Grenadeirs during the French indian war....think about it; what would you do with grenades no longer be thrown by Grenadiers during the Rev War! I would add that Lapans succeeded beond Billsl wildest dreams and i am out of the casting pastime since they closed.

[Cannoneer]

I believe that the grenades that fit ( 2"3/16 ) were the same as the ones that were throw by Brit Grenadeirs during the French indian war....think about it; what would you do with grenades no longer be thrown by Grenadiers during the Rev War!

Thanks for your quick reply exlimey. So, you do think that there is a good possibility that the British produced small bronze "mortars" of this shape, in order to fire surplus grenades during the American Revolutionary War.

[threepdr]

I'm the former owner of the actual mortar shown in the Armslist.com photo.  As Exlimey pointed out, it was a Bill Meuse piece and very well made.  I also saw the tubes shown in Neuman's book but started to question his information soon after I purchased mine years ago.  This was reaffirmed after speaking with Paul Ackerman at the West Point Musuem and folks at the Royal Ordnance Society.   Evidently, Mr Muese did not intend it, but the tube is just about a perfect 1/2 scale verions of the Brit 4.5 inch mortar.  Also, it can put a racquet ball into low earth orbit!

[Leatherneck]

I saw grenade mortar and came as soon as I could
ta-da....

[Cannoneer]

I'm the former owner of the actual mortar shown in the Armslist.com photo.  As Exlimey pointed out, it was a Bill Meuse piece and very well made.  I also saw the tubes shown in Neuman's book but started to question his information soon after I purchased mine years ago.  This was reaffirmed after speaking with Paul Ackerman at the West Point Musuem and folks at the Royal Ordnance Society.   Evidently, Mr Muese did not intend it, but the tube is just about a perfect 1/2 scale verions of the Brit 4.5 inch mortar.  Also, it can put a racquet ball into low earth orbit!

Thank you for providing this information, threepdr.

[Cannoneer]

I saw grenade mortar and came as soon as I could
ta-da....

The appearance of that apparatus could almost be described as Da Vincian.

[A.Roads]

Here is another grenade thrower of the same era as the one in the photo, from the French Musee de Armee, Paris.
Adrian
 
 

[exlimey]

I believe that the grenades that fit ( 2"3/16 ) were the same as the ones that were throw by Brit Grenadeirs during the French indian war....think about it; what would you do with grenades no longer be thrown by Grenadiers during the Rev War!

Thanks for your quick reply exlimey. So, you do think that there is a good possibility that the British produced small bronze "mortars" of this shape, in order to fire surplus grenades during the American Revolutionary War.

         Difficult to prove; but possibly since the bore is the same size and would certainly throw a lot further than a Grenadier could. Pure conjecture on my part tho, just one of those mysterys like why did,nt they use the Galloper carriage here in the Rev War ? and what were Petards doing in store at Ft Ti and Yorktown !!

[Cannoneer]

Exlimey,
I've learned never to say never in these instances, because facts can always arise that may indeed surprise. Are there any extant examples of this size grenade, or any valid documentation that they existed?

[exlimey]

Exlimey,
I've learned never to say never in these instances, because facts can always arise that may indeed surprise. Are there any extant examples of this size grenade, or any valid documentation of their existence?

    Hi Cannoneer  Amen to that! I have seen some at Ft Ti they have many many artifacts that will never be displayed like most Museums including the one i  retired from;.  New York State Museum in Albany. As for their existance Hmmm we know that they were issued to Grenadiers in the F & I War and were thrown by hand after lighting the fuze, if you extrapolate that forward to the Rev War where they were not used by Grenadiers. I have a 2" diameter hollow ball that fits my mortar that i purchased years ago...no provenance  other than it came from a dealer just south of Ft Ti at a time when there was little interest in cast iron. Chris Fox is the head Curator at Ti and is very helpful. Hope this answers your question.  John

[steelcharge]

Ft. Ticonderoga has a "real" wrought iron mortar with smaller bore, but the provenance is uncertain as I recall.  Just because it is in the F.T. museum means nothing; they got donations from a lot of different sources and like many museums, didn't challenge the stories, if any, that came with the junk.

Is this the small mortar you were referring to?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/judybaxter/233959029/in/set-72157594232427529

It looks very similar to the german 4pdr grenade mortar I posted earlier, except the german one was bronze.

Here's another quite similar looking, iron one, of 7pdr caliber (I don't know the nationality of this one, the description says something about "Royal markings" but royal swedish or english or what I don't know):
http://www.digitaltmuseum.se/things/eldrr/S-AM/AM.049008?query=m%C3%B6rsare+till+handgranat&search_context=1&page=2&count=47&pos=43

[Cannoneer]

Adrian,
Thanks for posting the photos, that's an interesting contraption. I suppose we Yanks never felt the need to build similar devices, because of our national pastime being baseball.

Considering WWI trench warfare, I'd guess that the real reason for these things, was to be able to send the grenade on its way without having to expose one's body to fire. 

[Dresden]

THE FRENCH AND OTHERS HAD SEVERAL TYPES OF CATAPULTS EARLY IN THE WAR, SILENCE OF DISCHARGE BEING A PLUS, IN 1915 THE FRENCH USED THESE AS WELL MADE FROM AN 1888 RIFLE ACTION.


THERE IS SOME REASON FOR SMALL MORTARS IN THE WAR FOR NORTH AMERICA, IN THE WILDERNESS YOU HAD TO CARRY EVERYTHING YOU SHOT AT THE ENEMY, SMALLER CANNONS WEIGHED LESS, MORTARS EVEN LESS SO.

[Dresden]

REPOSTING PICTURE FAILURE