Cryogenic accuracy treatment

[ibgp3]

I'm having two 6.5 barrels rechambered to 6.5 Creedmoor.
...one is a Shilen  barrel that was stubbed,
...and the other is a handi barrel that was bored out from .223.
The gunsmith commented that the Shilen Barrel was very uniform in Hardness,
...but the Handi barrel kept changing from hard spot to soft spot and back while he was reaming it.
The gunsmith recommended a cryogenic treatment to improve the accuracy of the Handi barrel.
Anyone heard of that?
Anyone have experience with that?
...(other than Sourdough leaving a rifle outside in the winter.)

[tacklebury]

Yes, cryogenic treatments are often used in higher end gun barrels to make them more consistent.  There is a molecular level change in steels after having it done.  I am not sure the specifics on timing etc.   Here's the Wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryogenic_treatment

[craigster]

I and a couple buddies tried it. Our opinion? Money down a rat hole.

[26-t]

It may well help the handi as the lug is a weldment to the barrel. The heat effected zone is what was showing up in the reamer(STRESS) cryo will help relieve the stress induced by the welding. 4140 need to be relieved after welding. I am not sure that it is done properly from the factory as the hard and soft spots are showing up,   26-t

[Brian P.]

I tested the treatment on shooting long strings, from 300 Below, on a Marlin wmr.  I saw NO benefit and got a refund.

[Ranger99]

maybe it's when the cryo treatment is
done that makes it effective or not?
i know benelli spent a gazzilion dollars
(euros/lira?) for cryo equipment to treat
all their barrels/chokes and a lot of the
high end knives get cryo treatment.
maybe it's not effective after the fact?
i know it does affect grain structure in
steels. maybe some steels more so
than others?

[OldSchoolRanger]

I'm having two 6.5 barrels rechambered to 6.5 Creedmoor.
...one is a Shilen  barrel that was stubbed,
...and the other is a handi barrel that was bored out from .223.
The gunsmith commented that the Shilen Barrel was very uniform in Hardness,
...but the Handi barrel kept changing from hard spot to soft spot and back while he was reaming it.
The gunsmith recommended a cryogenic treatment to improve the accuracy of the Handi barrel.
Anyone heard of that?
Anyone have experience with that?
...(other than Sourdough leaving a rifle outside in the winter.)

Regarding the cryogenic treatment, IMO it's a money making procedure for a gunsmith, not much visible improvement, unless your profession is a "gun-riter", or a gunsmith.

What I would like to know is how the barrels turn out.  Is one a better shooter than the other, if so, which one.  If you don't mind could you put a ball park figure on the price for the work.  If you don't want it public, send me a PM.  I've always been interested in the 6.5 Creedmore chambering.  If I can't get one in a Handi, I might get one in a bolt rifle, they're lighting on hogs.

[cwlongshot]

I did it yers ago on a Ruger 77/22M... It did help accuracy a bit with uniformity... I don't know that I would do it again.

CW

[ibgp3]

I did it yers ago on a Ruger 77/22M... It did help accuracy a bit with uniformity... I don't know that I would do it again.

Regarding the cryogenic treatment, IMO it's a money making procedure for a gunsmith, not much visible improvement, unless your profession is a "gun-riter", or a gunsmith.

I saw NO benefit and got a refund.

I and a couple buddies tried it. Our opinion? Money down a rat hole.

That's unanimous!!

What I would like to know is how the barrels turn out.  Is one a better shooter than the other, if so, which one.  If you don't mind could you put a ball park figure on the price for the work.  If you don't want it public, send me a PM.  I've always been interested in the 6.5 Creedmoor chambering.  If I can't get one in a Handi, I might get one in a bolt rifle, they're lighting on hogs.

I started the project almost a year ago. Originally to compare 6.5TCU's. I got the stub a couple of months ago. It was chambered in a rimmed version that is a bitch to make brass for, but it showed promise.
 
In the meantime I bought an LR6.5. It is the best rifle I ever fired.


I found a Savage 6.5 Creedmoor barrel on-the-shelf and bought it and then a used Savage in .308 to put the barrel on. I did the barrel change myself. It had some scope mount problems, (now fixed) and should get to the range this week or next for evaluation.


While I was waiting for the rebore I experimented with making Creedmoor brass from 303Brit and 307Win. The Brit is easier, but both work.


So by the time the rebore arrived I had made arrangements for it to become a 6.5 Creedmoor rimmed, and decided to include the Stub.


Without optics:
  LR6.5 ~ $1000.00
  Savage bolt ~ $450.00
  Handi rebore ~ $600.00
  Handi Shilen Stub ~$1000.00


(Please don't send my wife a link to this post.)

[PineyCreek22]

Never had any experience with the process myself.  Most of what I have read indicates that little if any benefit results.  IMHO I think a good hand lapping job would do more to create  more consistant  interior barrel surfaces.  Piney Creek

[PHATINJUN]

I think I would put a rubber dounut thingy on it if ya want to spend some more money   Kurt

[cwlongshot]

I think I would put a rubber dounut thingy on it if ya want to spend some more money   Kurt

I was skeptable myself until I used one on a H&R 22LR that refused to group!! I posted this up some time back. I added it shot groups removed it shot patterns, replaced it and shot groups again.

Who knows if it will work on all barrels and calibers. All I will say is this limbsaver "Donut" worked on my H&R 22LR!!!

CW

[Ranger99]

have one of those limbsaver c.r. on
my .223 handi. works good for it.

[ibgp3]

I think I would put a rubber dounut thingy on it if ya want to spend some more money   Kurt

I was skeptable myself until I used one, ... this limbsaver "Donut" worked on my H&R 22LR!!!
CW

I suspect that Kurt's suggestion was mostly about things to do if my wallet started feeling a little heavy.
 

[cwlongshot]

I think I would put a rubber dounut thingy on it if ya want to spend some more money   Kurt

I was skeptable myself until I used one, ... this limbsaver "Donut" worked on my H&R 22LR!!!
CW

I suspect that Kurt's suggestion was mostly about things to do if my wallet started feeling a little heavy.
 

LOL. Maybe so...

CW

[gcrank1]

We have one custom muzzleloader that has had the treatment, a fine Rice barrel, and it is slick, nice & easy to clean and shoots well. We never had a chance to prove it before, so, who knows? The friend who made it makes match rifles and has a source for the treatment that is so reasonably priced that there was no reason not to, and he has proven to his satisfaction that it improves a barrel (he is a champ shooter). I have heard some pricing for this that I consider a racket; batches of items are done, not one at a time, so the cost is spread per pound.
IMHO, it wont make a bad barrel good, but it may make a good barrel a little better. You do the math for yourself with the price they pitch you.

[bikerbeans]

I don't know hoot about the cryogenic barrel treating business but I will concur with your smith regarding "hard spots" in Handi barrels. I have noticed this while reaming chambers and also while turning down the outside of a barrel.  IIRC, one member doing a handi rechamber, 30-30AI???, couldn't not finish the work by hand because of a hard spot and the good folks at 4D finished the chamber for him. 
 
BB

[Smokin Joe]

I've made a bunch of knife blades for myself and others and I know that the cryo quench will transform the steel's micro-structure and makes it more wear resistant by transforming any remaining austenite to martensite.

The quench is followed by a temper or draw using an oven. For the life of me, I can't see how stresses can be removed by cryoquenching without a draw afterward. It would seem that temperatures this low would do nothing but induce stress.

[Mr BadWrench]

In theory, If you wallet was REALLY REALLY heavy, it could cause to to shoot a little to the left.... I completely understand how this would help....   Id just leave it in the car but thats how I roll.

 Don

[gcrank1]

As I recall, the cryo was a drop to X deg., held for just so long and let to come back up, then the oven draw for just so long, etc. A lot of stuff is done, tooling and such, so the chap gets a full container full to run the procedure. Ive read about it some but cant explain it more than to say, it made sense to me and I'd do it were the price still 'right'. I can see where somebody could take advantage of the unsuspecting and throw some 'premium charges' on top of the real costs. IIRC we talked about if it were better to lapp before or after, and decided it probably wouldnt matter.
I do know that Rice barrel is very nice and, last I knew, no longer available.

[Dinny]

George,
  I once had the thought to try cryo treating a Handi barrel but never followed through with it. I do, however, have experience with cryo treated razor blades. I shave every single day while deployed and never need more than 8 blades per year. I get more than 40 shavings from a single Gillette Sensor Excel blade.
  I have my wife convinced that we save money every year by using Great Razors' blades. In fact, I just reallocate the saving to buying bullets, etc instead.

http://www.greatrazors.com/about-us.aspx

Looks like it's only $35 + plus shipping for a rifle barrel.
http://www.cryopro.com/gun.html

Thanks, Dinny

[ibgp3]

The directions at cryopro make it pretty clear that the treatment is applied to your unopened container, and that it is then returned to you. I don't believe that will include any oven time.


...but, for $35 plus shipping I will have it done to the rebore, after I know how it shoots untreated.


Thanks Dinny.
  GP

[Dinny]

George,
  They keep the razor blades in their original packaging too. Please document all of your results and share your findings. I'm considering sending them a knife blade for a kit that I'm giving as a gift to my dad.

Thanks, Dinny

[tacklebury]

I'm thinking though if it made my .223 any more accurate, it'd always look like I was shooting one hole.  That just doesn't seem right.